The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 391  4669 28-Sep-1992 Dan's Traveller  TNE - comments << ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
 391  4670 28-Sep-1992 George William   TNE Musings and a plea for interest <<
 391  4671 28-Sep-1992 Steve Higginbot  Of Ice and stutterwarps... << Lord Krie
 391  4672 29-Sep-1992 CS171308011@UTS  H. Ross Oberlindes? << Hmmm,
 391  4673 29-Sep-1992 CS171308011@UTS  Re: TML Public or Private << Carl sez:
 391  4674 29-Sep-1992 "Carl Fago"      Re: TML Public or Private << Scott, the
 391  4675 30-Sep-1992 pihlab@hhcs.gov  NUCLEAR DAMPERS << Fusion warheads soun
 391  4676 30-Sep-1992 Robert S. Dean   A New Project << I just returned to wor
 391  4677 30-Sep-1992 BARANSKI@VEAMF1  Copyrights et. al. << Whether TML is a
 391  4678 30-Sep-1992 Nicholas Sylvai  Re: TML Public or Private << >I have al
 391  4679 30-Sep-1992 Leonard Erickso  Is traveller-request broken? << I sent

------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4669
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 15:37:21 EDT
From: Dan's Traveller Mailing List Mail <tml@engrg.uwo.ca>
Subject: TNE - comments



ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Erk Epm Hum!! Time to wake up after the summer hibernation...
Here is another Old Man's Thoughts. (Curmudgeon I am not - at least I
hope not :-). Though I tend to be less talkative than most old timers, I'll
see If I can add something to the discussion?
>
> From: bryan borich <70541.1410@CompuServe.COM>
> Subject: TNE writer's conference
>
> Item forwarded  by  M.MIKESH     to B.BORICH
>
> T I F F A N Y   S T A R   # 3 1                   Michael R. Mikesh
>
> TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA -- WHY?
>      GDW admits they did not support MEGATRAVELLER (MT) adequately.
> An underlying reason was simply that they did not play MT, and so did
> not know the system very well.  As a result, temptation was too great
> to redirect support elsewhere.  GDW wasn't offering this reason as an
> excuse, only as an explanation.

They didn't support Traveller, Nor Megatraveller, now they are going
to make it a spin off of their TW:2000 system. (Which got many of
its rules from modifications to traveller). I'll believe the support
when I see it. I always thought that DGP provided good and interesting
background material, (as did Paranoia press, and Gamelords, etc) now
they are part of the unoffical group... Support of third party
products is part of the support of the product line as well...

>      To avoid this problem, they want to write TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA
> (TNE) strictly in-house.  Further, it will be based on the
> TWILIGHT:2000 family of games, which is good for a few reasons.
>      First off, TNE will belong to the GDW house role playing system.
> Because of this, the designers don't have to think in terms of a
> different rules set when they provide TRAVELLER support, giving them a
> boost in productivity.

What? Think in terms of a different set of rules?? Most of the work for
a module is in the story line, and fitting into the background and mood
of the game system (one would hope). The work to construct the correct
tasks shouldn't be all that difficult, or those people who know the
old system are going to be under a lot of duress in the switch to TNE.
I can however see this point for producing new rules supplements, ship
designs, etc...

>      Second, its very easy for gaming groups to hop among GDW RP games
> and even borrow elements from one another.

Sure like putting stutterwarp in Traveller, or perhaps the dark
lords, that won't cause much unbalance...NOT! (more on this later...)

>      Contrary to what some might believe, this is not a move just to
> make more money with a new rules set.  While it is true that new rules
> sell well, the initial sales of TNE will pay for itself and that's
> all.  It takes a lot of effort and resources to put out a rules set.
> Profit comes as a result of reorders, so for TNE to be profitable, it
> must be good and its appeal must grow.

Despite Metlay's comments I agree with this, if you consider all the
development time in the cost of the first issue of a game, then it is
not going to make much money (if any). However the latter releases are
almost pure profit, as is a lot of work on the supplments that are planned
during this time. It all depends on how you do the bookwork. And yes it
is okay, really!, to make money when you do something...

>      The changes taking place in the Imperium setting are in effort to
> create more wild frontiers.  Originally, the Imperium was a very
> stable place, and well known to characters through the usual networks
> of library data.  The Rebellion shattered that stability.
> Unfortunately, the Rebellion itself became a spectator sport, too
> large in scope for player characters to interact with.

I agree that more frontiers were needed, and I also agreee that the
rebellion was a bad idea... Though there was the Leviathan Module which
was about exploration. With just a little manipulation they could have
maintained that as the "Frontier"...

> elite and dedicated players.  New players are intimidated by the
> volume of information that exists, which is impeding TRAVELLER's
> growth.  So, TNE will render most of that information unknown and
> unnecessary without invalidating the previous literature.

I can't see players intimidated by background information. The GM
perhaps, or players initmidated by huge amounts of rules. But there
are many other games, such as AD&D that seem to thrive with, well
I've lost count, but at least 3 complete worlds, plus umpteen rule
books (in their new simplified third edition...)

>      Established players will undoubtedly look back at classic
> TRAVELLER with a sense of nostalgia, which will have an intrinsic
> benefit in gaming with new comers.  Long time players running
> characters who skipped the "Short Nap" in cold sleep will remember
> well "the good ol' days."  They can relay their knowledge through role
> playing, but also sincerely convey an appreciation for what was lost.
> Perhaps together, old and new characters can restore the glory that
> belonged to that part of space.

This is one of the best things that they have thought up. Instead of
people having to pretend that they didn't know the old rules, you can
have them be a part of the "Aliens" phenomenon. Not only that when
the old players are unfamiliar with how the new rules work, you can
pass them off as being not familiar with the new technology.
"We'll be safe in this cave 1.1km below the surface, densitometers
only work to one 1km..."Just to find out that that part of the rules
have been altered, as the enemy beams in, err digs them out...

>
> RULES SYSTEM
>      TNE will come as two books.  The first will have only the rules.
> The second will contain the Imperium background.  The aim is to give
> players the option to adopt other science fiction universes for their
> campaigns.  GDW is even seriously considering a 2300 AD Sourcebook,
> restoring support for 2300 AD as a subset of TRAVELLER.

A good thought. I for one have always liked the near-technology feel
of the 2300 rules. Sometimes the traveller technology can give a player
a feeling of detachment, as the entire lifestyle can be radically
different from our own.

>      TNE will definitely not be an outgrowth of MT.  Although MT was
> an award winning game design, the GDW staff isn't comfortable
> continuing with it because of elements they considered "fussy".  In
> particular, GDW will completely revise the ship design system to make
> it easier.  Digest Group made a special effort to assure that classic
> ships were convertible to MT.  GDW, however, will not do this so as to
> not risk compromising the new system.

I really have my reservations about this. The ship design rules in the
orignal set were not fussy, but I had a lot of problems with the discrete
values that had to occur to get that level of simpleness. (Actually I
consider the current design rules too simple. Ow. OW! Stop throwing things.)

>      The design system will have differing design sequences for
> different vehicles.  The tank system, for instance, will not include
> consideration for a jump drive or spinel mount.  However, the combat
> system will be compatible with everything.  Tanks can fire on
> starships, for instance, without requiring a conversion.

The orignal reason that the systems were different was that ground combat
occured over such a small time scale that a ships maneouvering attempts
would be irrelevant  if the same rate of fire was used in starship combat.
So they made the ship combat occur over a longer time scale (10 or 15
minutes instead of 10 seconds if I recall the facts...)

>      Three versions of faster-than-light drives will be presented in
> the rules, jump drive (TRAVELLER), stutterwarp (2300 AD), and star
> gates (resembling Pournelle's MOTE IN GOD'S EYE universe).

Presumably one would choose which one you wanted to use. As has
been mentioned elsewhere, stutterwarp and jump drive are not compatable
when it comes to combat. Unless, however, they alter the speeds of
in-system maneuvering. If one could get a good fraction of C out of ones
maneuver drives, then the jump ship might have the edge, as it could
simply jump away if it gets too damaged...

>      The ship combat system might include a vector combat system, like
> what appeared in GDW's MAYDAY. However, GDW hopes to simplify bringing
> distant ships to tactical range without burdening players with vector
> mechanics just to get their ships to close.  A vector combat system
> will probably not appear if GDW uses instead the stutterwarp combat
> system (see later).

Any combat with more than three ships (two really) requires either a
3-D combat system or idiots for ship captains. I doubt that they will
do this, for the same reason that the universe is flat (or nearly so,
nearly flat can be explained by the current maps). That reason is
complexity. People (myself included) have difficulty imagining a complex
3D situation when only 2D is present.

>      Doing this, however, will skew the stellar population
> unnaturally.  Most real stars are red dwarfs, whereas they will be
> uncommon in TRAVELLER. However, a misconception crept into star charts
> that GDW might decide to throw back out.  Charts were only meant as
> navigation aids.  They originally did not represent the actual
> positions of the star systems nor all of the star systems present.
> They showed only systems that might be visited, particularly ones with
> populations or sources of fuel.  Other systems did not show.

I have used this before in the past. Letting pirates (Har!) or other
disreputable types (like Megacorps) set up bases in uninhabited and
uncharted systems in the "empty" hexes on the map.

>
> NEW ERA BACKGROUND
>      There won't be much left of interstellar society after the Virus
> causes the total collapse interstellar trade.  This destroys the
> Solomani Confederation and most of the alien realms as well.  We're
> left with what is spinward of the Rift, a remnant of Lucan's Imperium
> in Core Sector, and scattered pocket empires.

I have a big problem with the other races being at all affected by
any form of computer probelms. Okay perhaps the Solomani, as they would
have quite similar systems to the Imperium. Maybe the Aslan, Vargr. But
why on Earth (or off it) would the K'kree, or Hivers have anything even
remotely similar that could be affected in any manner by a plague/Virus
starting in the Imperium???

>      The New Era will be an age of discovery. Explorers (Star Vikings)
> from the pocket empires will go out and recontact worlds in a fashion
> loosely resembling what we see in STAR TREK.  Starships are still
> especially rare and valuable during this time.  Boarding action will
> prevail in space combat so as to capture, not destroy, the hardware.

Are the characters to be these so called Star Vikings? I am not certain
of their place in the cosmos. Perhaps they are the new bad guys?
As for boarding actions, I can see them, if you had a fast enough craft
to close to zero range (and find a spot where no weapons could be
pointed at you to dock to). Or perhaps the Vikings will have a special
Viking power to use aginst the ships, put them in statis or something,
but have to board in order to actually take control of the ship...

>      Deneb survives, thanks in part to an impassioned appeal by Chuck
> Kallenbach (Paranoia Press; HIWG).  Vargr activity across the Corridor
> slowed the migration of the Virus long enough to give Norris time to
> prepare and counter it.  As a result, the Empire of Deneb remains a
> powerful interstellar state even in the New Era.

BZZT. Thanks for playing. I like the Domain and I too would like to
see it remain for sentimental purposes. But I can't see the Virus
taking out the Imperium, Aslan and Vargr without affecting the Domain.
By doing this they have already broken their own rule about exceptions,
I'd like to see how they come up with the reason that a group of
planets using the exact same technology is spared while ones using
radically different ones are not...

>      TNE will detail the Zhodani.  A modus vivendi exists between
> Deneb and the Consulate whereby the governments are at peace with one
> another, even if the cultures are at odds. Some trade does take place,
> but Deneb will more vigorously pursue trade with the Human Client
> States to replace old Imperial markets.  However, an understanding
> exists with the Zhodani that Deneb will not absorb those states.

Yea! I've always liked the Zhodani. But I am feeling cheated that we
won't see anything about the core expeditions (Talk about good frontier
actions), and the threat from the core. Lots of good plot threads there
that they are passing up..

>      Conflict still exists with the Vargr and Aslan.  Ultimately,
> Deneb might wage a campaign against the Vargr in Corridor and push
> back through the Rift.

Why when they were "mostly destroyed" by the Virus??

>
> THE VIRUS IS YOUR FRIEND

I don't think I need to add anything here. I don't like the term
Virus, I don't like the concept... If it is just a plot device, why
not have some sort of opponent that at least requires some form
of physical contact. Nanomachines, or some sort of AI lifeform that
takes over ships, etc.. Otherwise no communication should or could
exist in the new universe. Open channels to the vampire ship, and
suddenly you ship is not yours anymore. I shudder to think of what
a hacker that thought 10,000x faster than I could could do. And there
would be no way to stop it, short of Isolation.

>      As you can see, the Virus offers an endless number of exciting
> science fiction plots.

All sorts of fiction plots perhaps...

>
> STAR VIKINGS
>      The Virus inflicted much harm upon the Hive Federation.  However,

But not the Domain of Deneb!

> thanks to their advanced knowledge in electronics, they combated it
> more effectively and preserve their interstellar society.

>      Hiver traders tried to encourage more benign attitudes through
> their contacts with the humans, but were largely UNSUCCESSFUL.  Many
> of their traders were even attacked and destroyed, so the Hivers
> shifted tactics.

What did all the great manipulators die suddenly or what? Manipulation
is now a lost art? Humans are notorious for doing anything for a price.

>
(Enough has already been said about the Vikings...)
>
> TNE PHILOSOPHIES
>      Although the rules system will change, nothing will be lost to
> TRAVELLER as a result.  As Dave Nilsen explained, "If you can do it in
> TRAVELLER, you can do it in TNE."

Nothing will be lost?? Map changes, all the current library information
ship designs. Perhaps some modules will be able to be converted
without too much difficulty...

>      GDW will return to being vague about technology.  From the
> feedback they received, STARSHIP OPERATOR'S MANUAL explained too much,
> so things like the lanthanum grid for jump drives will not be carried
> over.

I seem to remember that after the people at GDW had released 2300AD and
set up a background of many decades of their use, the players managed to
come up with some new twists to their use. (I think the tug actions).
This shows that one cannot always catch on to the uses of a new technology
introduced into the game system. This is one of the reason's I think
that GDW doesn't want to get into the details of the various technologies,
as they can more easily plug any holes in the system if there is not
a concrete logical explanation for everything.

> STUTTERWARP & TRAVELLER
As other people mentioned retrofitting Stutterwarp is a bad idea.
I might buy someone discovering it now that J-Drives may not be
availble on certain planets, or maybe if the rules were changed that
it wasn't found feasable, or maybe even outlawed due to extreme health
hazards...

>
> PRODUCTS
>      Release of TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA is postponed to February 1993.
> They do not want to risk a rushed job on this.

Ooh. 6 whole months. I doesn't sound like they have gotten very far on
the rules if they are still hashing out major componets like what types
of drives to use. Perhaps they can protoype it faster than normal as
they have the system already developed, but that isn't a lot of time
for playtesting, even if they had it available today...

					-Dan

P.S. Despite all the rambling I made. I will probably buy the new rules
and I will help GDW if at all possible, though I am not a writer...


Dan Corrin, Network Manager, Mechanical Engineering, UWO, London, Ontario
InterNet: dan@engrg.uwo.ca.                                (519) 661-3834
TML/CZ/FrameUsers/Consim FTP site: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12)

------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4670
Subject: TNE Musings and a plea for interest
From: gwh@lurnix.COM (George William Herbert)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 19:10:15 -0700


Having watched 'the ball' pong back and forth a bit over
TNE, I'd like to add my comments.

	To me, the virus is looking less and less believable
after having read the Challenge:64 description and thought
about it some.  Not for how it works: looking at the details,
I can see how it could happen.  ("Daylight come..." indeed 8-).
My problem is in believing that it hadn't happened earlier.

	To massively summarize, the premise is that the Imperials
were using the Cymbeline silicon life chips as Transponder components
and (Lucan?) builds a virus from one of the Cymbeline predators.
That's all fine and good, but it requires a suspention of disbelief
that all n-billion starship designers and crew didn't know what was
being built into their starship (_nobody ever successfully pried a
transponder open and looked inside?  gimme a break...) and didn't
notice as the transponders "chatted" back and forth all the time
between ships.  Any military organization that didn't notice this
would be neglegent beyond belief and quite a few groups of characters
in campaigns I've been in would have noticed the chitchat of transponder
traffic and taken a closer look.  It won't fly, even ignoring the
fact that the presumption is that the only application of these
little gems was in transponders (I can think of a few million other
uses for them, myself, and I'm sure someone else would have too...).

	Given as how it's set in stone by now, however, that's sort
of a moot point (oh, shoot the Moot while we're at it).  Moving right along,
I'm just going to keep writing adventures and such.  I figure it can't
do too much damage. (heh).  Good backgrounds always are worth working
with, no matter what the rules are.  I figure that TNE is going to
be a background worth writing in.  After all, MT was... 8-)


	And on to point two-oh;

	Every month, GDW puts out a Challenge with +- (argument's sake)
15,000 words of Traveller material.  A rough approxomation of TML
traffic is more like 50kwords, at least 15kwords of which is non-story
or PBEM related.  I.e. we're doing more talking about Traveller than
they are publishing by a large amount.
	How come it is, then, that with dozens of great posts, rules,
and ideas bobbing around the group here, there are only a handful
of us getting published?  Looking around, I strongly suspect that
there's more talent here than anywhere else in one grouping
(not impugning the GDW staff or HIWG, but there are a lot'o people
on TML... 8-) .  So how come nobody here writing stuff and sending
it to GDW?  While we're here fuming about GDW ignoring or disliking
the TML list or its people, they're sitting there going "Gee, we've
got this loud crowd of people that complain and argue a lot and never
submit us anything." ...

	WRITE IT UP AND SEND IT IN!  If you don't think you can write well,
bounce it off one of the better writers here for editorial comments
or help.  (I volounteer if need be 8-).  You're energetic enough to
argue about it for days; why not just write it up and see if GDW buys it?

- -george william herbert

ps: met Metlay last Thursday, while he was in Berkeley (Hi Mike 8-).



------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4671
Date: 28 Sep 92 22:02:35 EDT
From: Steve Higginbotham <71035.1211@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Of Ice and stutterwarps...

Lord Krieg:

>Cynthia Higginbotham asked about the source of the "eigth ray of
>propulsion".  I think it came from the "Mars" novels by Edgar Rice
>Burroughs, although I'm not certain that I'm correct.

Give yourself ten experience points!  Absolutely correct.  For the one
hundred point bonus question, what was the "ninth ray"?


Scott 2G:

>Steve was talking about using laser cutters, and grav lifters to mine
>ice.  Well, ice, being transparent is probably not quite so easy to
>melt with lasers, but not certainly not impossible.  However, grav
>lifters, and mining equipment cost money.

Ice isn't really very transparent unless it is really pure H2O.  Which
cometary ice probably isn't.  And, while grav lifters cost money, most
merchant ships have them to offload the cargo.  And lasers are pretty
common where we come from:  welders, ship's weaponry, etc.

And I can't recall the last time someone tried to refuel anywhere but
a starport in our campaign.  But I also can't remember seeing a ship
bigger than a scout that DIDN'T have laser-cutters and grav lifters
on board.  And the scouts have air-rafts, which will do as a grav-lifter
in a pinch.


Dan:

>I am not that familiar with the stutterwarp tech. What would happen
>if one was to fire a sandcaster in the path of a stuterwarp ship.
>When It went to materialize in the cloud of sand what sort of problems
>would it have (if any).

It would have quite a lot of problems, IF it did something so silly as
to fly through such.  Since a stutterwarp ship normally fights at ranges
of several to many light seconds, the odds of it passing through a sand
cloud are about zero, unless the Captain is a suicidal idiot.  Normally,
such a ship will stay a couple of hours at six-Gs away from you, and
your sand won't do anything, except obscure your vision.


		---Steve

***The New Colchis Turtle-- A pathetic ship, but it actually IS
available in vast numbers..  <quote attributed to the President of
Neubayern>


^Z

------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4672
Date:    Tue, 29 Sep 1992 10:45:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: H. Ross Oberlindes?

Hmmm,

Odd question of the day:
Does anyone else see a parallel between Old Man Oberlindes and
H. Ross Perot?  I just started reading 'On the Wings Of Eagles'
and I am wondering if it inspired the old rescue of Sergi
Oberlindes on Ruie.  I may be wrong about the dates, but it
seems to me that old amber zone was written about the same
time as it occured.

The two seem to have similar backgrounds, attitudes and
inclinations.

So, I wonder what Oberlindes is supposed to be doing in the
rebellion....  Running for Arch-Duke?  :-)

2G Scott
Ross for Boss!  Ross for Boss!
(The above is forwardable)

------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4673
Date:    Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:28:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: Re: TML Public or Private

Carl sez:
}The TML is just as public as any other magazine and as such, should not be
}considered "private" mail.  Anyone can subscribe.  Porting over portions
}or whole bundles to those that do not have subscription capability is, in
}essence, a subscription.

}If you
}have something to say which is private in nature, send it to specific
}inidividuals, not the List.

Hmmm, well, you have a point.  However, I see a problem:

A great deal of what appears here as 'original material' ie. the stories,
vehicles, and ideas posted, etc, do fall under the definition (as I
understand it) of what GDW claims as it's intellectual property.  If
someone has a story which is not totally original, (if it uses the
Traveller background) then writing it to a public medium may constitute
plagurism.  Now, I'm really not up to snuff on the legality of such
things.  However, I don't think I can continue to write stories where
the inspiration is so obvious to all concerned.

I have always been of the opinion that The 4.5th Frontier War was
unpublishable, as it draws background, inspiration, situations, and even
characters lock stock and barrel from other stories.  If posting it here
on the TML constitutes publishing it in a public medium, I may indeed
have broken some law.  Or if I haven't, I'll betcha a lawyer could at
least make a case that I had done so.

I therefore consider all vehicles, stories, and other original work of
mine (or anyone elses) which appear here to be private in nature.  By
that definition, we may continue to write 'original traveller' material.
If the TML is indeed a public medium, I don't know if we can do that and
post it here.  True, it is doubtful that any of us would actually be the
subject of a lawsuit, as no money ever changes hands, but it may be
illegal in principle.  (I think...  I really don't know...)

Nick?  *********** H E L P !!!! ************  :-)

2G Scott

------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4674
Date: 	Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:01:00 -0400
From: "Carl Fago" <CDF1@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: TML Public or Private

Scott, the thing to remember is that Chadwick was essentially blowing smoke
with his "intellectual property" crap.  If he even thinks about going after
someone who pops off a story or two, the lawyers would laugh in his face!
Ok, actually they would go along with it cuz it will mean money in their
pockets.  But the judge won't even listen to it.

Hey, every RPG publisher encourages the writing of modules for their games.
What they do object to is the _selling_ of the modules.  When you start taking
money out of their pocket, that's when they get pissed (and rightly so for the
most part.)  Any story or ship design or world design or computer program
published in the TML gets no monetary reimbursement.  The stuff is original.
GDW isn't losing a dime!  However, if you were to start transcribing a
previously published module or story, that's another matter entirely.  From
my understanding of copyright law, GDW would need to show some sort of
damage inflicted upon them.  There is no damage (other than what they do
to themselves.)  I think we are all safe in the way the TML has been
operating in the past.

It is good to bring this up periodically, though.

Keep on writing!

 *-=Carl=-*  INTERNET - cdf1@psuvm.psu.edu    | Be wary of strong drink.     |
             DELPHI - WULFGAR  GEnie - C.FAGO1| It can make you shoot at tax |
 Carl Fago   State College, PA                | collectors -- and miss!      |


------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4675
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 14:10:06 +1000
From: pihlab@hhcs.gov.au
Subject: NUCLEAR DAMPERS


Fusion warheads sound interesting and plausible.

The discussion on this implied the need for a FISSION reaction to get the
FUSION reaction going and that using a standard FUSION power plant from a
space ship would be the other alternative.

Staship FUSION plants include all sorts of safe-guards and monitors and
consoles and shielding and spare parts and service facilities to operate and
that chews up a lot of the size and cost.

What if the missile contained the bare essentials to maintain a FUSION
reaction for a minimal amount of time (time to get to a target) and then
critical OR if it met the target earlier then it could voluntarily go
critical.

The missile in this case would be much smaller (approaching normal size) and
would need to be "ignited" just prior to launch.  This could be done by
"squirting" some "FUSION" from your starship's FUSION plant into the missile
just before launching it.  Please don't yell at me.  I'm not a nuclear
scientist and don't know how you would do these things in reality so I put
them in double quotes.

Is this feasible?

Now onto my main topic...  NUCLEAR DAMPERS.

Is this a field effect?  If so then how do you prevent it from damping your
own starship powerplant and all your own missiles?

If its a projector of some sort then why can't it be used as a weapon to
stop starships dead in space?

What sort of range does it have?

Is there a definitive description of this magical device somewhere?

Are nuclear dampers just magical devices dreamed up by GDW (like MESON guns)
or is there a remote possibility that we could produce one in a few
thousand years or so?

Oh I'm full of questions today.  Aren't I?


Bruce....          pihlab@hhcs.gov.au

------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4676
Date:     Wed, 30 Sep 92 9:58:35 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  A New Project

I just returned to work on Monday after a two week training session on cost
estimating, which is neither here nor there, except for the fact that I don't
usually find these classes to be too strenuous.  As a result, I tucked some
Traveller stuff into my briefcase when I went, and had time to work on it
a bit.

Now, the unusual part of it is that I didn't take MegaTraveller and I didn't
do vehicles: I took my copy of Starter Traveller, and I started trying to
detail a randomly geenrated subsector that I came up with when I bought that
set of rules in 1990.

What I would like to do is upload the information in batches, and ask for
everyone's opinions on how to go about squeezing some interesting adventures
out of this particular subsector.  Sort of an exercise in GMing.

With any luck, I'll have the basic rolled planet data typed in sometime today
or tomorrow.  I should mention that I bought the copy of Starter Traveller
and rolled the subsector while I was at the Viola da Gamba Society of
America's annual convention, so the planet names have a rather odd topical
consistency.

Coming soon:  The Gamba Subsector--An Imperial Backwater.

Rob Dean
(Yes, I'm still here...)


------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4677
Date:    Wed, 30 Sep 1992 10:33:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: BARANSKI@VEAMF1.NUSC.NAVY.MIL
Subject: Copyrights et. al.

Whether TML is a private or public list, whether anyone gives us money for our
thoughts organized as ink and paper or electrons, GDW can't do a dammed thing
about ORIGINAL material.

A Copyright is just that; a COPY - RIGHT; a right to say who can or cannot copy
your work, and/or make money doing so.

This 'intellectual property' stuff is BS.  It doesn't matter if I make a
million dollars writing stories, scenarios, third party rules, or GMing.  GDW
can touch you *as* *long* *as* *you* *do* *not* *copy* *their* *material*!

Now it may be difficult to literally never copy any of their material;  It will
be hard to write a scenario without refering to the rules in some fashion.
What you have to do is either refer to it in an original way, or simply refer
your reader to the original rules which they would have to buy from GDW, which
*should* make GDW happy.

For instance, I can write an article about the inconsistancies of T2000 and MT
ship design, and how the published ship designs don't make any sense, and don't
follow the rules.  I can even publish my own designs, and talk about why I
think my designs are better and how they are different.  BUT, I can't copy and
publish GDW's ship designs or ship design rules.  Therefore, any reader has to
have read and presumably bought GDW's rules and designs in order to really
understand the article.

I have to say that actually I don't really know whether if I made a business
out of publishing gaming material based on GDW's Traveller, whether I would
need  some sort of license agreement to make unavoidable duplication of GDW's
work.  Part of such an agreement might be to make your work 'officially
accepted'.  Did Paranoia Press et al have licensing agreements with GDW?

But anyway the current brew-ha-ha is rediculous.  This is as bad as being sold
a live role playing rule book, and then being told that I couldn't run my own
games based on those rules.  I laughed in their face.  I bought the right to
use the book in any way I choose, except I can't copy it, barring any specific
restrictions in the copyright notice in the book.

Can you imagine TSR or some such telling you that every one of your D&D games
has to be sanctioned by TSR, and you have to pay them money for each session!
Hah!  But that is where any idiot sniveling about 'intellectual property' is
headed.  IF GDW, or any other company wants to make money, they have to sell
products people can and will use as they see fit.  If anyone tells me I can't
develop my own rules, designs, modifications or what have you, they are cutting
their own throat.

Oh, and... watch out for the Games Police (tm)... :->

Jim Baranski

------------------------------
Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4678
Date: 	Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:06:46 -0400
From: Nicholas Sylvain <npsylv%wmvm1.bitnet@utcs.utoronto.ca>
Subject:      Re: TML Public or Private

>I have always been of the opinion that The 4.5th Frontier War was
>unpublishable, as it draws background, inspiration, situations, and even
>characters lock stock and barrel from other stories.  If posting it here
>on the TML constitutes publishing it in a public medium, I may indeed
>have broken some law.  Or if I haven't, I'll betcha a lawyer could at
>least make a case that I had done so.

If drawing inspiration, situations, background, etc. from a variety of
situations made something unpublishable, then I wonder how many books
are "unpublishable." Particularly in some genres of writing, there can
be substantial borrowing (you just can't make things too similar...)...

Whether the TML is public or private in a legal sense is a very good
question. As a limited subscriber list (albeit one that anyone can
join), I would as a personal guess say that it is private, at least in
comparison to other "media."

>I therefore consider all vehicles, stories, and other original work of
>mine (or anyone elses) which appear here to be private in nature.  By
>that definition, we may continue to write 'original traveller' material.
>If the TML is indeed a public medium, I don't know if we can do that and
>post it here.  True, it is doubtful that any of us would actually be the
>subject of a lawsuit, as no money ever changes hands, but it may be
>illegal in principle.  (I think...  I really don't know...)
>
>Nick?  *********** H E L P !!!! ************  :-)

Hey, don't look at me, I'm still only a law student! :->

Seriously, you are asking at what point the line is crossed between
copyrightable material and copyright infringement, and while I don't
have the answer, I would be interested in knowing that as well.

Personally, I'd continue on with current practice. If GDW sat on their
"rights" then they have no cause to complain, and if they try to enforce
their "rights" they're probably wasting money. At least you could always
use the "pure heart, empty head" defense. :->

- ---

"I have never sought to inspire confidence in others. I have quite enough
 of my own."                       -- Sherlock Holmes

Nicholas Sylvain
Marshall-Wythe School of Law
College of William & Mary

------------------------------

Bundle: 391
Archive-Message-Number: 4679
Date: 30 Sep 92 13:56:36 EDT
From: Leonard Erickson <70465.203@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Is traveller-request broken?

I sent a message to traveller-request a couple of weeks back. A few days
later I got a note from uunet saying that they'd been trying to deliver
the message for 3 days!

More recently, I missed TML Nightly V45#2. I sent a note to traveller
request, and nothing has happened. I think it's broken folks...

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 392  4680 30-Sep-1992 Robert S. Dean   The Gamba Subsector << As I mentioned b
 392  4681 30-Sep-1992 CS171308011@UTS  RE: Public/Private TML << I Sed:
 392  4682 01-Oct-1992 Mark F. Cook     Gamba subsector GIF available << A 770x
 392  4683 01-Oct-1992 Hans Rancke-Mad  Gamba Subsector << OK, Rob, here are a
 392  4684 01-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   The Gamba Subsector, Part 2 << Now  tha

------------------------------

Bundle: 392
Archive-Message-Number: 4680
Date:     Wed, 30 Sep 92 14:11:58 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  The Gamba Subsector


As I mentioned before, the Gama Subsector was created while I was at the Viola
da  Gamba  Society of America's annual convention in 1990.  I  dusted  it  off
recently  when  the  discussion of TNE started to bore me, as  a  change  from
designing vehicles.  (Seriously--I'e got enough of them now that I don't  feel
a  real need to do any more any time real soon...)  The problems  involved  in
GMing any subsector seem to me to be about the same, whether the subsector  is
from a published source, or randomly rolled, and whether the rules are Classic
Traveller or MegaTraveller (or TNE?).

I'm very much interested in adventure ideas which the subsector and its worlds
suggest to you, and anyone who can create and upload a computer  transmittable
_map_  would receive my gratitude, as having a map in front of you might  make
this discussion easier.

Anyway, here are the worlds of:

THE GAMBA SUBSECTOR

Hex#  Name          UPP        Bases    Trade     GG?
- ------------------------------------------------------
0102  Violone       C778867-3  S                   Y
0103  Vielle        E322335-8           NI, P      Y
0105  Fantasia      A99A522-8           NI         Y
0106  Galliard      A100505-E  N        NI         Y
0109  Motet         C898735-3           AG         Y
0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
0205  Ricercar      X67759B-3           NI, AG     Y
0206  Pavane        C84379A-4  S        P          Y
0210  Canzona       C765673-3           NI, AG, R  Y
0301  Treble        D655242-4  S        NI         Y
0302  Tenor         E446411-6           NI         Y
0308  Haydn         D455273-8           NI         Y
0309  Bach          C525442-7  S        NI         Y
0402  Bass          D223302-9  S        NI, P      Y
0405  Lawes         EAC9200-8           NI         N
0407  Marais        B1225A6-B           NI, P      Y
0408  Forqueray     A353546-B  N        NI, P      Y
0501  Pardessus     A114523-E  S        NI         Y
0506  Byrd          E460256-8           NI         Y
0509  Abel          D779443-5           NI         Y
0605  Simpson       A74A369-D           NI         Y
0606  Gibbons       C474620-5           NI, AG     Y
0607  Lassus        A250687-D           NI, P      Y
0704  Morley        C452633-6           NI, P      Y
0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
0708  SUSATO        E584A67-5                      Y
0709  Adriano       A668125-C           NI         Y
0710  AGRICOLA      E56A976-9                      Y
0803  Weelkes       C112888-A  S        NA         Y
0805  Baldwyn       A625343-A  S        NI         Y
0806  Brade         C8B7410-7           NI         Y
0808  Attaignant    E236200-8           NI         Y

Interesting Facts:

The highest technology level is E (14) at Galliard and Pardessus.
The highest population level is A at Susato.
The only industrial world is Madrigal, at TL6.
The three high population worlds have TLs of 6, 5, and 9 respectively,
   and starport types of B, E, and E respectively.
There are two balkanized planets, Agricola and Canzona.
Only one system (Lawes) has no gas giant.

Early assumptions made:

The  subsector capital was placed at Lassus, with a TL of 13, a class A  star-
port, and a central location.

The  worlds are distibuted in the form of a "main" of sorts at the right  hand
side of the subsector, three clusters of worlds at the bottom, and an isolated
world, a cluster of two, and a cluster of three worlds at the top.

Placing IISS X-boat routes to connect class A starports, naval bases, and  the
capital,  I drew links between Galliard, Forqueray, Lassus, Baldwyn  and  then
off the map to the right.

The  assumption  of native populations was made to account for  the  two  high
population  worlds  with class E startports and relatively  low  tech  levels.
Susato was chosen as the home of a minor human race, since we know that  there
are 40-odd of them, and only a few have ever been described, and Agricola  was
chosen  as  the home of a race of aliens, since I didn't think that  the  100%
water surface was conducive to a large human population.

If you use the Classic Traveller description of class A starports as the  only
facilities  containing ship yards, and the shipyard capacities  from  Trillion
Credit  Squadron, you reach the conclusion that there are only four  potential
commercial shipbuilding sites in the subsector, at Galliard (TL14),  Pardessus
(TL14),  Forqueray (TL11) and Lassus (TL13).  The total "drydock" capacity  of
these four sites is 150 tons, 150 tons, 150 tons, and 1200 tons  respectively.
So, only Lassus can build anything bigger than a Scout ship.  It is my  inten-
tion to stick to Book 2 starship designs for this exercise, which makes things
a little easier overall, since Jump limits are based on hull size rather  than
tech level.

Assuming  a  reasonable ship life, and a need to perform maintenance  for  two
weeks  out  of  each year, we find that Lassus can support a  total  fleet  of
shipping,  military  and civilian, totalling around 19,000  tons.   Ships  are
either going to come from beyond the subsector, or be fairly scarce, or  both.
I don't know that this would work, so I have designated Weelkes as a potential
ship  source.   Weelkes would have a shipyard capacity of  120,000  tons,  and
would be rated as an industrial planet if its population was 9 instead of 8.

Adventure Potential:

Psionics  Institutes were rolled for, and none appeared.  This can  always  be
altered later if necessary.

With only one industrial planet, and that at TL6, high tech "goodies" are also
going to be expensive, hard to maintain, and hard to replace.  Just  something
to keep in mind...

With  most  of  the  planets  (24 out of 32) having  a  trade  code  of  "Non-
industrial",  merchant characters with ships are going to be hard  pressed  to
make a living in speculative trade, especially if we elect to use the Merchant
Prince trade system (i.e., the MegaTraveller trade system.)

Balkanized  worlds  prevent some of the best opportunities for  espionage  and
military  adventure, in my opinion, and there are only two in  the  subsector.
One  of  them is the world I already designated as the home of a  minor  alien
race,  making  it potentially difficult for players to  become  interested  in
their politics, depending on how alien they get to be...

There are no inhabited asteroid belt mainworlds, but that doesn't mean that  a
belt can't be added to a system if it would be interesting.

So, does anyone have any ideas yet?

I looked at this subsector for quite a while and was unsure of what I would do
with it.  A lot of the worlds look pretty useless, and I can't imagine at  the
moment why some of them were inhabited at all.  The generally low  populations
lead  me  to decide that the subsector is fairly "young" as these  things  go,
which gives me some notion of how to start thinking about the worlds.

In  the  next installment, I'll discuss the brief world  descriptions  that  I
wrote up for each of the 32 worlds, and then ask if these seem reasonable.


Rob Dean

rsdean@apgea.army.mil  or
robdean@access.digex.com  or
R.DEAN14 on GEnie.

------------------------------

Bundle: 392
Archive-Message-Number: 4681
Date:    Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:39:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: RE: Public/Private TML

I Sed:
>I have always been of the opinion that The 4.5th Frontier War was
>unpublishable, as it draws background, inspiration, situations, and even
>characters lock stock and barrel from other stories.

Nick Sez:
}If drawing inspiration, situations, background, etc. from a variety of
}situations made something unpublishable, then I wonder how many books
}are "unpublishable." Particularly in some genres of writing, there can
}be substantial borrowing (you just can't make things too similar...)...

Yeah, well George Harrison got his pants sued off for 'My Sweet Lord'
which sounds Nothing like 'He's So Fine'.  :-P

}Whether the TML is public or private in a legal sense is a very good
}question. As a limited subscriber list (albeit one that anyone can
}join), I would as a personal guess say that it is private, at least in
}comparison to other "media."

In my opinion, ignorant of the laws as I am, I would guess we would be
safer if the TML were defined as "private".  At least from a legal
point of view.  That way we sidestep a bunch of possible legal
tripwires, and we as individuals are responsible for our writing,
with no possible blame going where it doesn't belong.
(TML Admin.  Hi James!)

>Nick?  *********** H E L P !!!! ************  :-)

}Hey, don't look at me, I'm still only a law student! :->

Yeah, I know, but yer the only lawyer type I know!  :-)
	You ambulance chaser you!  :-)

}At least you could always
}use the "pure heart, empty head" defense. :->

Well, I dunno 'bout the first part applying to me, but I'll bet a
bunch of people 'round here would testify to the latter!  :-)

2G Scott
"But the point of a gun was the only law
 Liberty understood.
 When it came to shootin' straight an' fast
 A law book was no good...."

------------------------------

Bundle: 392
Archive-Message-Number: 4682
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Gamba subsector GIF available
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 9:09:46 PDT

A 770x1080 gif-format file of Rob Dean's Gamba subsector is available by
anonymous ftp from the TML archive on sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12).
Look in the directory ~ftp/pub/traveller/sectors/rsdean, and you'll find
two new files: gamba.gif and gamba.sec.  The .gif file is obvious, the
other file (.sec) is Rob's original data, reformatted slightly for use
as an input file the ssv X Window-based subsector viewer.

If anyone else is interested in having having set of SUBSECTOR (not SECTOR)
data converted into a map in gif format (or lots of other formats; send
me your preferences and I'll see if I support it), just generate your
subsector data in the format shown in the gamba.sec file and I can convert
it for you.  X-boat routes and political boundaries can be included if
a text description of them is appended to the data file.

Later,

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: Hewlett-Packard
        User Interface Technology Division - Corvallis (Tech. Marketing)
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

------------------------------


Bundle: 392
Archive-Message-Number: 4683
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Gamba Subsector
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 18:05:47 MET

OK, Rob, here are a few rough ideas about Gamba subsector.


First a map:
_______________________________________________________________________

World signatures:                       Travel zones:
* T-norm or T-prime                      o  Green
+ Breathable air & land/sea mix         (o) Amber
0 Waterworld                            [o] Red
O Desert world
o Vaccuum or Non-breathable atmosphere
- - Corrosive or Insidius atmosphere
: Asteroid Belt

Bases:
! Imperial Naval Base
$ Scout Base
% Local Naval Base

          _____         _____         _____         _____
         /     \       /  D o\       /  A o\       /     \
        /       \_____/ $ *   \_____/ $ o   \_____/       \_____
        \       /     \Treble /     Pardessus     \       /     \
         \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
         /  C o\       /  E o\       /     \       /     \       /
        / $ *   \_____/   +   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
        \Violone/     \ Tenor /  D o\       /     \       /     \
         \_____/       \_____/ $ o   \_____/       \_____/       \
         /  E o\       /     \ Bass  /     \       /     \       /
        /   o   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
        \Vielle /     \       /     \       /     \       /  C o\
         \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/ $ o   \
         /     \       /     \       /     \       /  C o\Weelkes/
        /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   +   \_____/
        \       /     \       /     \       /     \Morley /     \
         \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
         /  A o\       /     \       /     \       /  E o\       /
        /   0   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   0   \_____/
        Fantasia/  X o\       /  E  \       /  A o\Jenkins/  A o\
         \_____/  [*]  \_____/   -   \_____/   0   \_____/ $ o   \
         /  A o\Ricercar     \ Lawes /  E o\Simpson/     \Baldwyn/
        / ! o   \_____/       \_____/   O   \_____/       \_____/
        Galliard/  C o\       /     \ Byrd  /  C o\       /  C o\
         \_____/ $ +   \_____/       \_____/   +   \_____/   o   \
         /     \Pavane /     \       /     \Gibbons/     \ Brade /
        /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
        \       /     \       /  B o\       /  A o\       /     \
         \_____/       \_____/   o   \_____/   O   \_____/       \
         /     \       /  D o\Marais /     \Lassus /  E o\       /
        /       \_____/   +   \_____/       \_____/   +   \_____/
        \       /     \ Haydn /  A o\       /     \SUSATO /  E o\
         \_____/       \_____/ ! +   \_____/       \_____/   o   \
         /  C o\       /  C o\Forqueray D o\       /  A o\Attaignant
        /   +   \_____/ $ o   \_____/   +   \_____/   *   \_____/
        \ Motet /     \ Bach  /     \ Abel  /     \Adriano/     \
         \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
         /  B o\       /     \       /     \       /  E o\       /
        / $ +   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   0   \_____/
        MADRIGAL/  C o\       /     \       /     AGRICOLA/     \
         \_____/   *   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
               \Canzona/     \       /     \       /     \       /
                \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
_______________________________________________________________________

Then some ideas:

Hex#  Name          UPP        Bases    Trade     GG?
- - ------------------------------------------------------
0102  Violone       C778867-3  S                   Y

T-prime planet with viable population, yet pre-industrial tech.
Perhaps a regressed colony rediscovered by Scouts and put under
surveillance and protection. This jibes with the Scout base.
No interdict. Propably recently lifted, perhaps when TL became
3. Limited trade and contact permitted by the Scouts, but there
are restrictions on what kind of tech you can import.

0103  Vielle        E322335-8           NI, P      Y

Small non-viable population on undesirable world. Either a
mining outpost or a dirt-poor, struggling colony of pilgrims
(religious or political).

0105  Fantasia      A99A522-8           NI         Y

Large waterworld with either large colony or small independent
population. Could be a co-op seaharverster outfit.

0106  Galliard      A100505-E  N        NI         Y

Really undesirable dirtball with large colony/small independent
population and a Naval Base. No government, moderate law. I think
most if not all of population employed at naval base. Shipyards are
propably larger than population indicates. Try adding Imperial taxes
of all Imperial worlds in sub-sector and figure out how many tons of
warship that would buy. This shipyard should be able to maintain at
least that many Naval ships. The base propably guards the Imperium
from hostiles to the left (sorry, spinward).

0109  Motet         C898735-3           AG         Y

Another large population with low tech. Maybe another regressed
colony (so why no Scout base? (Add one?)).

0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y

Another regressed colony, but one that has been open for some time.
(If Imperial presense is fairly new then a population level of 9 is
propably due to locals rather than immigrants).
Who is paying for the Class B Starport? The tech level is too low
to support starships, so someone is importing the technicians and
parts to keep it going. The local government? An independent
starport corporation? A subsector-wide trading company? A trade
conglomorate? Starport can be whatever size you want; it dosen't
necessarily serve the whole planetary population.

0205  Ricercar      X67759B-3           NI, AG     Y

Prison planet (run by who?) with artificially restricted technology.
Population is forced to sell agricultural products to home planet
for low prices.

0206  Pavane        C84379A-4  S        P          Y

Mainworld, regressed colony (There's a lot of them, isn't there?
Possibly there once was a small interstellar community that had
a bad case of civil war).

0210  Canzona       C765673-3           NI, AG, R  Y

Another regressed colony (but where's the Scout base?)

0301  Treble        D655242-4  S        NI         Y

Outpost of some kind (But why the low TL? Outposts are usually
placed by starfaring people. Can't use the Prison Planet again).

0302  Tenor         E446411-6           NI         Y

Struggling colony.

0308  Haydn         D455273-8           NI         Y

Outpost.

0309  Bach          C525442-7  S        NI         Y

Young colony. What's that Scout Base doing here?)

0402  Bass          D223302-9  S        NI, P      Y

Outpost. Again, what's the Scout base doing?

0405  Lawes         EAC9200-8           NI         N

Low-budget scientific outpost studying the ecology of this
insidius atmosphere world.

0407  Marais        B1225A6-B           NI, P      Y

What is there to attract several hundred thousand people to this
low-G, near-vacuum pleasure resort? A garden world it ain't.

0408  Forqueray     A353546-B  N        NI, P      Y

Secondary naval base for this sub-sector. Naval shipyard capacity
could be split between this base and Galliard Base. The base have
enough imported high-tech spare parts to repair and maintain navy
ships, but civilians are restricted to local (TL 11) services.

0501  Pardessus     A114523-E  S        NI         Y

Main Scout base for the Sub-sector. Most of population is Scouts,
ex-Scouts, Scout's families and Scout Base support industry.

0506  Byrd          E460256-8           NI         Y

Another scientific outpost?

0509  Abel          D779443-5           NI         Y

Struggling colony.

0605  Simpson       A74A369-D           NI         Y

Why would anyone place a Class A starport in a system with a few
thousand inhabitants? And no bases to explain it. I'd drop the
classification to B, I think.
The world is the property of the Simpson Memorial Foundation. The
Simpson Academy of the Arts and Sciences is build on the single
sizable island on the planet. The island has an area of 2.500
square kilometers and supports roughly 800 Fellows and Associates
of the Academy plus about ten times as many family members and
support personel (There's actually little distinction between
these two categories). The Academy owns a small fleet of research
vessels and the main business of the starport is maintaining these
vessels. The various scientific outposts in the subsector are
very likely Simpson Academy projects. The captive government
classification reflects the economic strings to the off-planet
Simpson Foundation.

0606  Gibbons       C474620-5           NI, AG     Y

Another regressed colony?

0607  Lassus        A250687-D           NI, P      Y

Mainworld. Propably mostly Imperial immigrants and their
descendants. This desert world must have some valuable
ressources to attract settlers. I'd give them a local navy
base.

0704  Morley        C452633-6           NI, P      Y

Mainworld.

0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y

I'd drop the TL to 0.

0708  SUSATO        E584A67-5                      Y

Do yourself a favour and drop the population level to 9.
Otherwise this world will contribute more to the subsector
naval budget than all the other worlds together, despite the
unfavourable exchange rate.

0709  Adriano       A668125-C           NI         Y

Highly desirable planet with Class A Starport and only a few
score inhabitants? How to make sense of that? I would up the
population level to 6, 7 or 8, making it a very important world
locally (And give them a local naval base).
One alternate idea occured to me: A short while ago this was a
thriving world, but a plague wiped out the entire population.
Present population is a medical research team, the world is
quarantined and the starport is not functioning at the moment.
The research team would propably be larger; An unoccupied
T-norm planet with intact housing, high-tech industry and
starport facilities for millions of people would be a prize
beyond the dreams of avarice, and the pressure to find a cure
for the plague would be immense. Expect the political infighting
over control of this planet to overshadow any other concerns.
PCs getting involved in this would have an interesting time
(in the ancient chinese sense). (And how did that plague start,
anyway?)


0710  AGRICOLA      E56A976-9                      Y

The natives would have to be aquatic, not just amphibious. Good
luck working out their technology. It must be radically different
from human.
Or you could make them airbreathers (or humans for that matter) by
covering the world with hugh, thick floating mats of plant stuff
(shades of Jack Vance's Blue World) where 'land' beasts have
evolved. The mats would have to be hundreds of meters thick and
many hundreds of kilometers across. Some mats would be anchored
to undersea mountain chains, others would drift around.
Political history would be quite fascinating. "In the year 456
a storm broke off the province of Ervorveu which drifted across
the Western Deep and finally joined the Giorgad Mat in 513".
Talk about the changing face of maps!

0803  Weelkes       C112888-A  S        NA         Y

Another of these punk worlds with huge populations. This time I
think it must be a mining colony that got cut off by the fall
of that interstellar community and managed to survive. Personally
I would cut the population level down to 6 or 7 anyway, possibly
simultaneously increasing the population of a more hospitable world
correspondingly.

0805  Baldwyn       A625343-A  S        NI         Y

Again a Class A starport without the population base to support it.
I'd cut the starport class down to C and put an Ancient Base being
investigated by the Scouts here.

0806  Brade         C8B7410-7           NI         Y

Company world. Law level non-existent. I think any company would
maintain dicipline, so I'd interpret that as "Law not enforced
outside starport compound" (Starport is owned by company  -  in
fact, it IS the company building). So how does the company make
money? Independent hunters or collectors goes out into that
corrosive atmosphere and collect something valuable (what?). The
company has a monoply on buying. They couldn't care less that
one hunter/collector kills another for his haul,  they get the
stuff in the end, anyway.

0808  Attaignant    E236200-8           NI         Y

Scientific outpost? Mining outpost?

_______________________________________________________________________

Some additional ideas:

>If you use the Classic Traveller description of class A starports as the only
>facilities containing ship yards, and the shipyard capacities from Trillion
>Credit Squadron, you reach the conclusion that there are only four potential
>commercial shipbuilding sites in the subsector, at Galliard (TL14), Pardessus
>(TL14), Forqueray (TL11) and Lassus (TL13). The total "drydock" capacity of
>these four sites is 150 tons, 150 tons, 150 tons, and 1200 tons respectively.

Could be larger if the population multipliers for these worlds are high.

>Assuming a reasonable ship life, and a need to perform maintenance for two
>weeks out of each year, we find that Lassus can support a total fleet of
>shipping, military and civilian, totalling around 19,000 tons.

The one (roughly) ton shipyard capacity per 1000 inhabitants in TCS is
naval capacity only. No mention is made anywhere about civilian shipping.
My own rule of thumb is two ton of commercial shipping for each ton of
warship.

>Ships are either going to come from beyond the subsector, or be fairly
>scarce, or both. I don't know that this would work, so I have designated
>Weelkes as a potential ship source.

If you up the population of Adriano to something sensible you get your
ship source there. If you introduce the plague you get a ship source AND
a really desperate merchant community. Where are they going to get their
ships overhauled now? You could even make a ship overhaul the reward of an
adventure...

>So, does anyone have any ideas yet?

Not really... Well, perhaps a few more ;-)

History: Remains of some fleet arrives and settles on Susato, a planet
with a minor human race that have reached TL 7 or 8. Susato recieves a
technological boost that catapults them into the space age. Pal Gamba,
the nation that the fleet took over  -  eh, settled in, conquered all
of Susato and proceeded to colonize most of the good planets in the
subsector. The Greater Gambarian Empire held for a couple of generations,
but internal tensions were too great and a civil war destroyed the industry
on Susato and shattered the economies of the colonies. Plunge into
their own personal Long Night. A couple of centuries ago the Scouts
surveyed the subsector and slapped interdicts on most of the inhabited
worlds. Other worlds were colonized, however, and over the last century
the Scouts have been pressured into lifting the interdict on most of
the worlds. They still maintain import restrictions and the relationship
between the Scouts and the Traders is strained, to say the least.

Powerful organizations:

The Scouts      Retrenching, but they fight to maintain their hold.
The Navy        Moved in to guard against the neighbouring Whobahs.
GITT            Gamba Interstellar Trade & Transport LIC. Subsector-wide
                company trying to poke their sticky fingers in every-
                where they can get away with it. The greasy profiteers
                you love to hate. Headquartered on Madrigal and
                presently engaged in upgrading the starport.
SAAS            The Simpson Academy could be a useful patron in many
                situations. They have connections back to the Sector
                capital to trailing (The Simpson foundation is
                incorporated there), and can (in time) procure high-
                tech equipment and bring political pressure to bear.

Well, let me know what you think.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 392
Archive-Message-Number: 4684
Date:     Thu, 1 Oct 92 14:07:27 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  The Gamba Subsector, Part 2


Now  that you have had a chance to look over the Gamba Subsector as  origi-
nally rolled, I'll show you the world descriptions I worked out.  These are
all  in  the  order that I have them in my notebook, and  you'll  notice  a
tendency  for them to get longer as we go on.  The order is fairly  random,
starting with those that were either more obvious or more in need of expla-
nation.  Additional information on the Agricolans will be included in  part
3.

THE WORLDS OF THE GAMBA SUBSECTOR:

Madrigal:   Most  noteworthy  features are a dense  tainted  atmosphere,  a
religious  dictatorship and an oppressive law level.  A combination of  the
Puritan and the Soviet Union, and maybe we'll get back to them later...

Agricola:  Standard  atmosphere water world, with a  native  population  of
mammalian amphibians, plus a human/dolphin colony.  The natives are balkan-
ized,  with  the main source of conflict being over islands which  are  re-
quired for breeding grounds and technology platforms.  Pregnant females and
young children can't swim, so they need boats or islands.

Susato: Dense atmosphere, dry world, governed from Lassus since the Imperi-
um intervened to prevent a global war about ten years ago.  The natives are
a  minor human race, although there are no known ancient sites on the  pla-
net.  <future enigma?>

Jenkins:  An  uninhabited  earth-like planet  with  a  tainted  atmosphere.
Obviously,  whatever the taint is can't be overcome economically  with  the
use of technology...

Violone:  Low  tech with a high population and a  captive  government--this
will need explanation, later...

Canzona: Settled by even more fanatical religious dissidents from Madrigal,
who  are  split up into groups that can't agree.   Potential  Amber  travel
classification.

Adriano:  This world is too good to pass up, so it's a new colony site, and
the population represents the advance survey team presently on the ground.

Motet:  An agricultural colony of Madrigal, ruled by a hereditary  vice-roy
of some sort.

Weelkes: As mentioned in part 2, Weelkes has been selected by the Gm as the
main  ship producing planet for the subsector.  So, while there is no  com-
mercial  shipyard as such, the Weelkes planetary navy is primarily made  up
of cargo carrying vessels.  In fact, the government of the planet is  obvi-
ously  a "macro-corporation" and the world will eventually have an  "indus-
trial" trade classification.

Brade,  Tenor: Mining colonies.  Tenor is a rich lanthanum source,  closely
guarded by the corporation which runs Weelkes.

Lassus:  Since I'd like to have a little bit of an excuse for some reasona-
bly high tech manufacture, I'll declare that Lassus is famous as a robotics
center,  and  benefits from the output of a large "population"  of  robotic
factories.   Rather  Asimovian, crossed with "The People of  the  Wind"  by
Anderson.

Ricercar: X class starport, interdicted because of residual disease contam-
ination.   The local ecosystem produced a virulent mutant plague about  200
years  ago,  shortly  after the initial settlement.   Survivors  were  more
resistant,  but lost technology for a variety of reasons (to be  determined
if necessary later).  The current government structure has developed  along
bureaucratic/repressive  lines because of the need to follow an  aggressive
public  health/decontamination  policy.  Survivors were not  evacuated  for
"public health" reasons.

Baldwyn:  Ice-capped,  Mars-like planet with all population  geared  toward
starport services.  A few prospectors in outlying pre-fab habitats and  the
like...

Simpson:   Run from Lassus.  A waterworld with detailed  exploration  still
continuing.  There are very few scattered atolls, but interesting groups of
island-sized  floating  plant clusters (Anyone read "The  Demon  Breed"  by
Schmitz?).  The starport is a tethered submersible structure.  Like Lassus,
there is extensive use of robotics.

Gibbons:  Low tech agricultural planet with population mostly  spread  over
large  ranches  and/or  farms.  Main trading partner is  Lassus,  but  some
higher value luxury goods carried to Agricola, Susato and even Madrigal.

Morley:   Mining  colony economically dominated by Weelkes.   Some  farming
around  the  sea  coast, but extensive desalinization  facilities  (run  by
fission--fissionables are the main mining purpose) required for irrigation.

Attaingnant:   Icy rockball orbiting a gas giant, inhabited only  by  tran-
sient  freelance  miners.  Groundside is a bazaar  frequented  by  asteroid
mining  teams.   Law enforcement is a matter of having  bigger  lasers  and
calling out the posse.  Susato is the main recipient of the raw  materials.
The  mining equipment in the system includes lots of obsolete  space  junk,
including oddities like Agricolan built and crewed seekers.

Galliard:  Built as a research station over a hundred years ago for  inves-
tigation of the remains of the largest Ancient site in the subsector.   The
families  of  the  highly skilled researchers were  themselves  a  valuable
resource, and the University and naval base are today the main industries.

Abel:   Settled about thirty years ago by a dissident group of  Agricolans.
The  atmospheric  taint  (whatever it is) is something   that  bothers  the
Agricolans less than it does the humans.  Total population is about 20,000,
up  from an original group of 10,000.  There are fewer than  200  permanent
human residents, mostly associated with the Imperial government.

Fantasia:  The  starport  at Fantasia was completed a few  years  ago  with
Imperial  assistance.  Fantasia is one of the two colony sites in the  sub-
sector  being developed by the Imperium (the other being Adriano).   It  is
rather  heavy  for Agricolans (1.6 of their G's), but  tolerable  for  them
while  they are in the water.  Both humans and Agricolans  require  filters
against  the  atmospheric taint (excess CO2?), but it is  anticipated  that
introduction of terran-type vegetation will eventually bring the CO2 levels
down to human/Agricolan standards.

Pavane: Pavane was one of the first worlds settled in the subsector,  since
it could support life as is.  However, colonization proceeded slowly, since
a  more attractive colony site was being developed on Madrigal, and  scien-
tific  interest  was drawn to the Ancient site at Galliard and  the  native
populations  of  Susato and Agricola.  The conservative  culture  that  the
original colonists brought with them eventually became insular and xenopho-
bic, and stabilized there.  At present a growing faction of merchants  with
Imperial trade interests is agitating for changes, and are the targets of a
systematic  governmental campaign of suppression.  The planet's scout  base
is fairly isolated, on an island 50km or so off the coast in the main  sea.
Potential  Amber  Zone if guerrilla warfare breaks out.  Also  a  potential
site for arms smuggling adventures.

Lawes:   Lawes  is  a research station with  no  manufacturing  capability,
sustained by occasional chartered flights from Lassus.  The subject of  the
research is a highly classified Imperial secret, and _no_ reference will be
found in any database.  The cover story is that it is a potential lanthanum
mining  site, but a close examination of the available data will show  that
this is probably not true.

Byrd:  Byrd  is very similar to Lassus in a planetological  sense,  and  is
currently  occupied by a Lassus-based exploration organization.  Little  of
commercial  value has been found, and the current phase of  exploration  is
expected to end in a few years.

Treble:  Treble is a marginal colony world isolated due to its astrographi-
cal  position.  A group of fifty selected couples settled in 1096, and  the
population  in  1105 is 323.  The scout base consists of a  single  100-ton
sized hangar, a permanent staff of five, and a package fuel refiner.

Vielle:   Mining operation with an emphasis on fissionables extraction  for
export to Fantasia.

Bass:  All inhabitants are associated with the scout base, which was estab-
lished  to support an extended system survey after the discovery  of  trace
amounts of long half-life superheavy elements in an asteroid sample in 923.
Periodic  mining  rushes have occurred when additional deposits  have  been
identified,  but  have  seldom (never?) been  profitable  for  the  miners.
However, the Imperial government doesn't give up...

Bach:   Convenient station for Jump-2 traders bound to and  from  Madrigal.
Not  particularly useful otherwise, and basically a one city  planet  clus-
tered  around  the  starport.  A lot of trading  company  offices  and  the
like...

Haydn:  Haydn  remains unsettled due to a combination of  unpleasant  large
animals  and  tectonic instability in the temperate regions.   Despite  the
fact  that these problems have ended three previous  colonization  efforts,
two competing groups are currently attempting to set up colonies.   (Madri-
galans and Susatans?)

Pardessus:  A mineral rich planet chosen as the site of  a  self-sustaining
colonization  project  (with a view toward  developing  another  industrial
planet) by the Imperium about thirty years ago.  Lifeless planets have some
advantages when viewed as potential industrial worlds....Much of the  popu-
lation is Imperial veterans given shares in the colony as discharge  bonus-
es.

Marais: Developed as a companion to Forqueray with an emphasis on industri-
al growth.  Not very far along yet.

Forqueray:   A reasonably good planet, easier to settle than the others  in
the cluster.  As a result, it was colonized about 120 years ago.   However,
the  original constitution tied voting rights to land ownership, and  as  a
result the has been a split between the landed and the non-landed  classes.
Since  the planet has a high tech level, and regulation is light,  disgrun-
tled  non-landed inhabitants have a tendency to emigrate.  The  pattern  of
settlement is large estates with "rental villages" for the landless  inter-
spersed.  A fair amount of robotic agricultural gear imported from  Lassus.
Loosely inspired by Hermes from Poul Anderson's Mirkheim.

Violone: (Again) OK.  We'll make this one the inevitable lost colony dating
back  to  the  Rule of Man.  Much archaeological work remains  to  be  done
before the history of the planet is firmly established, but it appears that
a planetary nuclear war was fought about 2000 years ago.  In the aftermath,
the  survivors were reduced to TL0.  Recovery to TL3 was achieved  by  600,
and  cultural  stagnation set in.  Violone was recontacted by the  IISS  in
706,  and an administrative protectorate established.  Import  of  advanced
technology  is strictly forbidden.  The atmospheric taint rating is due  to
seasonal plant spore problems, which the natives have adapted to be able to
handle.  <Sorry, it's allergy season here in the U.S.>


OK.   Those are my versions of the worlds.  This has gotten long,  so  I'll
type  up  some  preliminary information on the Scout  bases,  the  Imperial
presence, and the Agricolans tomorrow.

Rob Dean

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 393  4685 01-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Gamba Subsector << Hans Rancke-Mad
 393  4686 01-Oct-1992 Michael P. Metl  Is there anybody OUT there? << Is it ju
 393  4687 01-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Gamba Subsector << Hans Rancke-Mad
 393  4688 01-Oct-1992 Michael P. Metl  Cancel Red Alert << If anyone sees this
 393  4689 01-Oct-1992 George W Herber  About Copyrights... << While it is true
 393  4690 02-Oct-1992 Adrian Hurt      Gamba Subsector << Hans Rancke-Madsen <
 393  4691 02-Oct-1992 "THOMS, KEITH"   RE: Gamba Subsector <<  What's wrong wi
 393  4692 02-Oct-1992 Hans Rancke-Mad  Gamba Subsector again << Rob Dean write
 393  4693 02-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Gamba Subsector again << Hans Ranc
 393  4694 02-Oct-1992 Steve Higginbot  Gamba subsector, belatedly...(and Georg
 393  4695 03-Oct-1992 metlay           On Gamba Subsector << Having only recen
 393  4696 03-Oct-1992 Steve Higginbot  Challenge 64 and the virus... << I just

------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4685
Date:     Thu, 1 Oct 92 14:49:21 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Gamba Subsector

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:


> OK, here are a few rough ideas about Gamba subsector.
>
>
> First a map:

Thank you very much!  That will make this easier for everyone else.


> Then some ideas:
> 0102  Violone       C778867-3  S
>
> T-prime planet with viable population, yet pre-industrial tech.
> Perhaps a regressed colony rediscovered by Scouts and put under
> surveillance and protection.

As you see, I agreed with your assessment on this one.  There are certain
"classic" planet descriptions that seem to show up repeatedly in Traveller
literature, and this is one of them.

> 0106  Galliard      A100505-E  N        NI         Y
>
> Really undesirable dirtball with large colony/small independent
> population and a Naval Base.

Not a bad idea, but I put the "university planet" and the "ancient site"
here.

> 0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
>
> Who is paying for the Class B Starport? The tech level is too low
> to support starships, so someone is importing the technicians and
> parts to keep it going. The local government? An independent
> starport corporation? A subsector-wide trading company? A trade
> conglomorate?

Probably that subsector wide trading company that dominates Weelkes in my
description.  I agree, definitely outsiders.  Potential friction?  The trading
company scheme has the advantage that it gives the GM an excuse for tying up
the otherwise fairly lucrative 1-jump trading system that can be developed
between Madrigal and the agricultural worlds Motet and Canzona.


> 0205  Ricercar      X67759B-3           NI, AG     Y
>
> Prison planet (run by who?) with artificially restricted technology.
> Population is forced to sell agricultural products to home planet
> for low prices.

Prison planet might be OK, but the "who?" is a problem.  That's why I chose
this one for the "plague planet".

> 0302  Tenor         E446411-6           NI         Y
>
> Struggling colony.

Probably.  In my book, I almost always use the "mining colony" description
when given the government type 1.

> 0309  Bach          C525442-7  S        NI         Y
>
> Young colony. What's that Scout Base doing here?)

Supporting Type S couriers jumping back and forth from Madrigal to the Imperial
X-Boat route station at Forqueray...

> 0402  Bass          D223302-9  S        NI, P      Y
>
> Outpost. Again, what's the Scout base doing?

That was a tough decision to make.  What do you think of the explanation for
this one that I came up with?

> 0405  Lawes         EAC9200-8           NI         N
>
> Low-budget scientific outpost studying the ecology of this
> insidius atmosphere world.


That's what _they_ would like you to think, isn't it? (-: (-:

> 0501  Pardessus     A114523-E  S        NI         Y
>
> Main Scout base for the Sub-sector. Most of population is Scouts,
> ex-Scouts, Scout's families and Scout Base support industry.

My explanation is pretty similar.

> 0605  Simpson       A74A369-D           NI         Y
>
> The world is the property of the Simpson Memorial Foundation. ...

Not a bad idea, but I already used it to explain Galliard...

> 0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
>
> I'd drop the TL to 0.

Represents the TL of the automatic distress beacon...(-:  (5 is the minimum
to support broadcast radio, isn't it?)

> 0708  SUSATO        E584A67-5                      Y
>
> Do yourself a favour and drop the population level to 9.

Maybe so...we'll consider it again later...

> 0709  Adriano       A668125-C           NI         Y
>
> Highly desirable planet with Class A Starport and only a few
> score inhabitants? How to make sense of that?
> One alternate idea occured to me: A short while ago this was a
> thriving world, but a plague wiped out the entire population.

I agree with you.  This one is difficult.  I decided to rate it as a start-up
colony, though you are most likely right about it being delayed by political
infighting among various groups attempting to gain control.  I used the
"plague world" explanation on Ricercar.

> 0710  AGRICOLA      E56A976-9                      Y
>
> Or you could make them airbreathers (or humans for that matter) by
> covering the world with hugh, thick floating mats of plant stuff
> (shades of Jack Vance's Blue World) where 'land' beasts have
> evolved.

The mats of floating plants is an obvious idea...my primary inspiration
was Schmitz, though I've read The Blue World.  I like the idea of amphibians
better than purely aquatic lifefroms because it will make it easier for
them to interact with humans, and the Agricolans are one of the few
potentially interesting things going on in an otherwise bland subsector.
Besides the mats, up to 5% of the surface could still be land under an A
hydrographics classification.

> 0803  Weelkes       C112888-A  S        NA         Y
>
> Another of these punk worlds with huge populations.

Yes, but luckily there's only one in this subsector to explain.  It doesn't
stretch credulity too far to think that there is one world headed toward
being industrial that started life as a mining colony, does it?  Emigration
could be a problem though--maybe resentment against the segment of the
population that wants to leave (What comrade, you wish to leave now before
the end of the current Five Year Plan?)?

> 0805  Baldwyn       A625343-A  S        NI         Y
>
> Again a Class A starport without the population base to support it.
> I'd cut the starport class down to C and put an Ancient Base being
> investigated by the Scouts here.

Well, I already put the Ancient site at Galliard.  Two might be too many to
put in this subsector.  Any other ideas?  As it stands now, the only important
thing that I know about this system is that it is on the X-Boat line.

> 0806  Brade         C8B7410-7           NI         Y
>
> Company world. Law level non-existent. I think any company would
> maintain dicipline, so I'd interpret that as "Law not enforced
> outside starport compound" (Starport is owned by company  -  in
> fact, it IS the company building). So how does the company make
> money? Independent hunters or collectors goes out into that
> corrosive atmosphere and collect something valuable (what?). The
> company has a monoply on buying. They couldn't care less that
> one hunter/collector kills another for his haul,  they get the
> stuff in the end, anyway.

OK.  I like this, so it's now "official".  What are they collecting?
Anybody else got any ideas?

So, at least one other GM looks at this and decides that we need those standard
items: "the university planet", the "plague world", the ancient site, and the
"lost colony".  What subsector would be complete without all four?

Once we've discussed the explanations a bit more, we'll move on to the types
of adventures suggested by the worlds, and the combinations of worlds, in the
subsector.

Rob Dean
rsdean@apgea.army.mil  or
robdean@access.digex.com  or
R.DEAN14 on GEnie

------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4686
From: metlay@netcom.com (Michael P. Metlay)
Subject: Is there anybody OUT there?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 11:37:38 PDT


Is it just me, or has the TML vanished off the face of the Earth? I
haven't gotten a single issue in over two weeks. Anyone know what's
going on? HELP!

(BTW, James, if metlay@netcom.com is bouncing from UWO, try the explicit
form metlay@netcom.netcom.com. That should get through all right....)

Help me out here, folx; I have interspecies pornography to publish! |->

- --
dr. michael metlay | "Why is the Imperium *REALLY* falling apart?
                   |  Commander Ren Miller left Cadet Stimpy Chadwick
atomic city inc.   |  guarding the History Eraser Button.
                   |  The *Beautiful* *SHINY* button...
metlay@netcom.com  |  The Jolly *CANDY-Like* button...." (s. kellogg)

------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4687
Date:     Thu, 1 Oct 92 15:10:48 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Gamba Subsector

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> Some additional ideas:
>
>>If you use the Classic Traveller description of class A starports as the only
>>facilities containing ship yards, and the shipyard capacities from Trillion
>>Credit Squadron, you reach the conclusion that there are only four potential
>>commercial shipbuilding sites in the subsector, at Galliard (TL14), Pardessus
>>(TL14), Forqueray (TL11) and Lassus (TL13). The total "drydock" capacity of
>>these four sites is 150 tons, 150 tons, 150 tons, and 1200 tons respectively.
>
> Could be larger if the population multipliers for these worlds are high.

Agreed.  Lassus is the only one that would then become large enough to
build bulk freighters and the like, though.  Also, recall that I planned
to stick to Book 2 ships for the most part...of course, even in High Guard
there's not much need for anything bigger than a ship big enough to carry
the 1000-ton sized meson gun.

>>Assuming a reasonable ship life, and a need to perform maintenance for two
>>weeks out of each year, we find that Lassus can support a total fleet of
>>shipping, military and civilian, totalling around 19,000 tons.
>
> The one (roughly) ton shipyard capacity per 1000 inhabitants in TCS is
> naval capacity only. No mention is made anywhere about civilian shipping.
> My own rule of thumb is two ton of commercial shipping for each ton of
> warship.

I don't recall a specific ruling on this, and I always worked under the
assumption that it was the total capacity, figuring that in wartime the govern-
ment would take control of _all_ shipyards for war work, and in peacetime
they'd contract the maintenance work that overflowed from the Navy shipyards
out to civilian shipyards, so that there was really very little distinction
between the two.  But, as I say, that's just my interpetation.  If you look at
the capacity for a Population 9 world, you tend to wonder what they are doing
with the surplus...

> History: Remains of some fleet arrives and settles on Susato...

Hmmm...I'll have to think about this.  I don't like the idea of having
quite so many regressed colonies, but it's not a bad explanation for the
current set-up.  Which worlds would be in which categories in this scheme?
Also, where would you put this subsector?  I sort of thought of it as
having the Great Rift somewhere nearby to the Spinward, making it someplace
in Daibei or thereabouts...

> GITT            Gamba Interstellar Trade & Transport LIC. Subsector-wide
>                 company trying to poke their sticky fingers in every-
>                 where they can get away with it. The greasy profiteers
>                 you love to hate. Headquartered on Madrigal and
>                 presently engaged in upgrading the starport.

Not bad in general, and we'll use most of this, but we'll put their
headquarters on Weelkes, which they are trying to kick over the hump to
becoming a full industrial world.  The fact that they are looking out
for their competition is one of the reasons for their strong presence
on Madrigal, with the other being the lucrative trade with the adjacent
agricultural worlds...

> SAAS            The Simpson Academy could be a useful patron in many
>                 situations. They have connections back to the Sector
>                 capital to trailing (The Simpson foundation is
>                 incorporated there), and can (in time) procure high-
>                 tech equipment and bring political pressure to bear.

As a group description I like this, but I still think that I'll put the
University with the ancient site on Galliard.  Otherwise, the same
sort of comments will apply to them...

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4688
From: metlay@netcom.com (Michael P. Metlay)
Subject: Cancel Red Alert
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 12:41:33 PDT

If anyone sees this message in time to pull it from tonight's bundle
I'd appreciate it-- Mark Cook has hopefully fixed the problem with my
TML feed. I'm planning to thank him by reactivating the PBEM. <snicker>

Seriously, folx, Mark and I are going to try to put out the turn that
we finished at the beginning of summer, as a refresher before resuming
play. We'll let you know when the official WakeUp Call goes out....

- --
dr. michael metlay |
atomic city        |
metlay@netcom.com  |

------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4689
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 10:33:43 PDT
From: gwh@lurnix.COM (George W Herbert)
Subject: About Copyrights...


While it is true that there's little possibility of GDW making a
successful "intellectual property" lawsuit based on just the ideas
in Traveller, not actual copyright violation, please keep in mind
how hard it would be to _not_ violate copyright on their collected
works if someone did an unlicensed product.

You'd have to avoid referring to interstellar travel via a week-long
hyperspace as "jump".  You'd have to try and keep "Imperium" out of
it for most intents and purposes.  All alien race names would be
verboten.  Star system names might even be covered.

Heck, the task system is probably copyrighted and -able, so it's
probably out, too.  Weapon names like "7mm Assault Rifle" or
"RAM GL" or "PGMP" are probably out.

Could someone say, publish a book and make use of some subset of these
ideas?  Likely.  They're not totally unique to Traveller in scifi
writing and gaming.  However, any significant subset of them,
say enough to make a viable module, would probably be a violation.

Motto: if you go commercial, get a license.  If you're totally amateur,
it doesn't matter 'cause they have to prove damages if they sue
you for infringement, but make any money off it and you play the
game their way.  Writing an adventure article for a magazine is
generally considered "ok" in the industry, but publishing a
Traveller-oriented commercial product would be uncool.

- -george william herbert
gwh@lurnix.com  gwh@soda.berkeley.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4690
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Gamba Subsector
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 9:42:02 BST

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>
> 0105  Fantasia      A99A522-8           NI         Y
>
> Large waterworld with either large colony or small independent
> population. Could be a co-op seaharverster outfit.

This is another one of the classic Traveller worlds.  Will someone please
explain to me how a TL 8 world can support a class A starport?  As I
understand it, a class A starport can, by definition, build and repair
starships, i.e. jump drives, i.e. must be at least TL 9.  Bases, captive
worlds or other forms of outside influence might allow some outsider to
own, run and supply the starport independantly of the planet, but none of
these apply here.

> 0109  Motet         C898735-3           AG         Y
>
> Another large population with low tech. Maybe another regressed
> colony (so why no Scout base? (Add one?)).

An Agricultural world, using primitive tools and cheap labour to provide
food to the rest of the subsector - especially the dirtball worlds.

> 0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
>
> Who is paying for the Class B Starport? The tech level is too low
> to support starships, so someone is importing the technicians and
> parts to keep it going. The local government?

The local government, supported by disgustingly high taxes, backed up by
a law level that prosecutes you if you sneeze the wrong way.  A great
place for PC's to stay away from, unless you want the following exchange:

Police: "You're under arrest for belching in the general direction of the
        palace."
PC:     "But I don't even know where the palace is!"
Police: "You're also charged with failing to possess official information.
        The total fine is Cr20,000 payable now, or Cr40,000 after a fair
        trial."

> 0708  SUSATO        E584A67-5                      Y
>
> Do yourself a favour and drop the population level to 9.
> Otherwise this world will contribute more to the subsector
> naval budget than all the other worlds together, despite the
> unfavourable exchange rate.

Guess why someone came and conquered it?  (Government 6 - captive world.
Someone round here is short of money, and decided to do something about it.)

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian   |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4691
Date: 2 Oct 92 08:12:00 EST
From: "THOMS, KEITH" <KTHOMS@nccs-evax.navy.mil>
Subject: RE: Gamba Subsector


	What's wrong with the idea of emmigration, mass exodus, etc. from undesirable worlds to nicer places?  The stats genera
ted
for this subsector are only
a snapshot in time from the survey in 1105.  Human populations are rarely in
equilibrium when the grass in greener.

	Massive population movement would also generate considerable, temporary,interstellar traffic far above the "static"
statistics that determined ship
building and starport activity.  Plenty of plot material there.

Keith Thoms


------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4692
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Gamba Subsector again
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 13:51:32 MET

Rob Dean writes:
>Here are my ideas, as written down before I started typing this in:

Obviously one has a tendency to fall in love with one's own ideas. I have
tried to assess your ideas on their merits without considering how they
interfere with mine. Hopefully I haven't failed too often.

>Madrigal:   Most  noteworthy  features are a dense  tainted atmosphere,  a
>religious  dictatorship and an oppressive law level.  A combination of the
>Puritan and the Soviet Union, and maybe we'll get back to them later...

Taint is propably fossil fuel taint.

>Agricola:  Standard  atmosphere water world, with a  native  population  of
>mammalian amphibians, plus a human/dolphin colony.  The natives are balkan-
>ized,  with  the main source of conflict being over islands which  are  re-
>quired for breeding grounds and technology platforms.  Pregnant females and
>young children can't swim, so they need boats or islands.

I still think you need a considerable land area to evolve amphibians, but
I'm no biologist.

>Susato: Dense atmosphere, dry world, governed from Lassus since the Imperi-
>um intervened to prevent a global war about ten years ago.

Good idea. I use the "under Imperial administration" explanation for captive
governments quite a lot too.

>The natives are a minor human race, although there are no known ancient
>sites on the  planet.  <future enigma?>

Btw, keep in mind that those 40-odd minor human races works out at roughly
one per sector, so you don't want to use one without a good reason. I tend
to use them to provide an industrial and population base for fleeing
starfleets to establish star empires the way I suggested here.

>Jenkins:  An  uninhabited  earth-like planet  with  a  tainted atmosphere.
>Obviously,  whatever the taint is can't be overcome economically  with the
>use of technology...

More likely there are no useful biological products to attract exploiters
of this waterworld, and other type of settlers still have other places to
go to.

>Violone:  Low tech with a high population and a  captive  government--this
>will need explanation, later...

Hmm... I forgot the captive government rating when I tried to explain this
world. Something must have forced the Scouts to step in and take over.
Some kind of world-wide catastrophe?

>Canzona: Settled by even more fanatical religious dissidents from Madrigal,
>who  are  split up into groups that can't agree.   Potential  Amber  travel
>classification.

If this is not a regressed colony then there must be another reason for the
low tech level. Religious mania is a good one...

>Adriano: This world is too good to pass up, so it's a new colony site, and
>the population represents the advance survey team presently on the ground.

The problem is that a new colony site wouldn't have a Class A starport.
Starship construction would not be a priority if I wanted to establish a
new colony. Even starship maintenance would be performed at the home port.
They might have a B- port (Starship repair, but no spaceship construction)
but more likely a C+ (Full fuel facility). Secondly, 99 people is way too
few to open up a new world. An initial survey, sure, but how long ago do
you want the Imperial presence here to date back to? If it's more than 20
years this planet would've been surveyed already. It's one of the top
goodies of the subsector. Can you imagine anyone passing this one up and
go settle Lassus instead?

Brade,  Tenor: Mining colonies.  Tenor is a rich lanthanum source,  closely
guarded by the corporation which runs Weelkes.

>Bass:  All inhabitants are associated with the scout base, which was estab-
>lished  to support an extended system survey after the discovery  of  trace
>amounts of long half-life superheavy elements in an asteroid sample in 923.

Good idea.

>> 0205  Ricercar      X67759B-3           NI, AG     Y
>>
>> Prison planet (run by who?) with artificially restricted technology.
>> Population is forced to sell agricultural products to home planet
>> for low prices.
>
>Prison planet might be OK, but the "who?" is a problem.  That's why I chose
>this one for the "plague planet".

There's no reason why you should restrict yourself to one of each kind, you
know.

>> 0302  Tenor         E446411-6           NI         Y
>>
>> Struggling colony.
>
>Probably.  In my book, I almost always use the "mining colony" description
>when given the government type 1.

Yes of course; I overlooked the government type. In that case it is more
likely a highly profitable mining outpost. (I diffirentiate between
outposts, where most of the people comes from somewhere else and intend
to go back there eventually, and colonies, where most of the people comes
from somewhere else and intend to stay).

>> 0309  Bach          C525442-7  S        NI         Y
>>
>> Young colony. What's that Scout Base doing here?)
>
>Supporting Type S couriers jumping back and forth from Madrigal to the
>Imperial X-Boat route station at Forqueray...

What kind of support would they need there?

>> 0402  Bass          D223302-9  S        NI, P      Y
>>
>> Outpost. Again, what's the Scout base doing?
>
>That was a tough decision to make.  What do you think of the explanation for
>this one that I came up with?

Good one.

>> 0405  Lawes         EAC9200-8           NI         N
>>
>> Low-budget scientific outpost studying the ecology of this
>> insidius atmosphere world.
>
>That's what _they_ would like you to think, isn't it? (-: (-:

It beats the lanthanum extraction cover, don't you think? ;-)

>> 0605  Simpson       A74A369-D           NI         Y
>>
>> The world is the property of the Simpson Memorial Foundation. ...
>
>Not a bad idea, but I already used it to explain Galliard...

You could have more than one scientific institution per sub-sector, you
know. ;-)

>> 0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
>>
>> I'd drop the TL to 0.
>
>Represents the TL of the automatic distress beacon...(-:  (5 is the minimum
>to support broadcast radio, isn't it?)

I define TL as "Maximum sustainable by local population".

>> 0709  Adriano       A668125-C           NI         Y
>>
>> Highly desirable planet with Class A Starport and only a few
>> score inhabitants? How to make sense of that?
>> One alternate idea occured to me: A short while ago this was a
>> thriving world, but a plague wiped out the entire population.
>
>I agree with you.  This one is difficult. I decided to rate it as a start-up
>colony, though you are most likely right about it being delayed by political
>infighting among various groups attempting to gain control.  I used the
>"plague world" explanation on Ricercar.

You can have more than one of each. And if you use a plague on Adriano,
where DID it come from?

>Besides the mats, up to 5% of the surface could still be land under an A
>hydrographics classification.

4.99 %, but who's counting? Such small islands would propably serve as
anchors for land mats. Heck, they'd be the origin of the land mats.

>> 0803  Weelkes       C112888-A  S        NA         Y
>>
>> Another of these punk worlds with huge populations.
>
>Yes, but luckily there's only one in this subsector to explain.  It doesn't
>stretch credulity too far to think that there is one world headed toward
>being industrial that started life as a mining colony, does it?

No, but hundreds of millions? No mining colony needs that many people. IMO
these people's ancestors _couldn't_ leave, for whatever reason.

>> 0805  Baldwyn       A625343-A  S        NI         Y
>>
>> Again a Class A starport without the population base to support it.
>> I'd cut the starport class down to C and put an Ancient Base being
>> investigated by the Scouts here.
>
>Well, I already put the Ancient site at Galliard.  Two might be too many to
>put in this subsector. Any other ideas? As it stands now, the only important
>thing that I know about this system is that it is on the X-Boat line.

The X-boat line explains the Scout base perfectly. As for the Class A
starport, I'm predudiced against starship yards supported by a few
thousand people to dig the ore, refine the metal, build the machines to
build the tools to build the engines etc.. Whenever I find a Class A
starport on a world with less than half a million inhabitants, I tend
to look for an outside source of buyers for the ships like the Navy. If
I can't come up with a good explanation, I change the rating. (That's a
basic attitude. When I come across some unusual combination of stats I
spend 5 minutes trying to come up with an interesting explanation. Four
times out of five I succeed. But I don't insist on explaining everything.
Sometimes it is better to change a rating to something sensible.)

>> The one (roughly) ton shipyard capacity per 1000 inhabitants in TCS is
>> naval capacity only. No mention is made anywhere about civilian shipping.
>> My own rule of thumb is two ton of commercial shipping for each ton of
>> warship.
>
>I don't recall a specific ruling on this,

Me neither. As I wrote, there's no mention of civilian starships anywhere.

>and I always worked under the assumption that it was the total capacity,
>figuring that in wartime the govern-
>ment would take control of _all_ shipyards for war work,

Any government that interfered too much with the merchant marine in wartime
would run out of essential goods right speedily. Think about the British
Merchant Marine during WWII.

>and in peacetime
>they'd contract the maintenance work that overflowed from the Navy shipyards
>out to civilian shipyards, so that there was really very little distinction
>between the two.

I think that the Naval Shipyard capacity reflects the maximum amount of
civilian capacity they can take over in wartime without ruining their
economy. But that's just MY interpretation.

>> History: Remains of some fleet arrives and settles on Susato...
>
>Hmmm...I'll have to think about this.  I don't like the idea of having
>quite so many regressed colonies, but it's not a bad explanation for the
>current set-up.

The Gamban Empire lasted only long enough to put people on a lot of the
worlds. None of the colonies were self-supporting when the Empire fell
(The civil war was mostly between nations on Susato). Hence the whole-
sale regression.

>Which worlds would be in which categories in this scheme?

Gambanish populations might be found on a lot of the worlds. Suggestions:

Violone:  Settled by Gambans, regressed when Empire fell, rebuilt to TL
          6-7, nuclear bombed itself down to TL 0, advanced to TL 3.
          Interdicted until global catastrophy forced Scouts to step in
          (Massive tectonic burp? That makes the taint volcanic dust.)

Motet:    Settled by Gambans, regressed when Empire fell, rebuilding
          slow due to harsh environment. Interdicted by Scouts. Opened
          recently due to political pressure.

Madrigal  Same initial story, but had recovered to TL 4 by the time
          the Scouts got there. Scouts were forced to open world a
          generation ago.

Ricercar  Could still be a plague world. Or interdict could be the last
          Scout interdict left. This would entail putting a Scout base
          in the system.

Pavane, Canzona, possibly Gibbons could all have Gamban populations.

Adriano would have been colonized, no doubt about that. If you want
Adriano to be empty then they died out. If you take the plague story,
then they were there but not any more.

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4693
Date:     Fri, 2 Oct 92 12:48:55 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Gamba Subsector again

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> >Madrigal:   Most  noteworthy  features are a dense  tainted atmosphere,...
> Taint is propably fossil fuel taint.

Undoubtedly.  It was a nice planet before it got to be so polluted...

> >Agricola:  Standard  atmosphere water world, with a  native  population  of
> >mammalian amphibians...
>
> I still think you need a considerable land area to evolve amphibians, but
> I'm no biologist.

I'm not either, and my thinking was along these lines: Many creatures evolve
to fit niches that are fairly restricted in geographical range.  If such a
species evolved intelligence, it would then be able to spread out beyond its
original range due to the adaptive power that intelligence (hopefully) brings
with it.  So, the fact that their unintelligent ancestors could only occupy
a small fraction of the planet's surface should not cause us any great
concern.  Are any of the people who were posting on the biology thread a
few weeks ago reading this?  Is this a reasonable position, or is it totally
unworkable.  As I mentioned before, I'd like to keep the Agricolans amphibious
to make interactions with humans a little easier.  If It doesn't seem
reasonable now, how much would the hydrographic percentage have to be reduced
to make it reasonable?  9? 8?

Regarding the Susatans:

> Btw, keep in mind that those 40-odd minor human races works out at roughly
> one per sector, so you don't want to use one without a good reason.

In general I agree, but since I am only going to do one subsector, I am a
little more willing to put in "one per sector" type features than I would be
if I was doing a whole sector.

> >Adriano: This world is too good to pass up, so it's a new colony site, and
> >the population represents the advance survey team presently on the ground.
>
> The problem is that a new colony site wouldn't have a Class A starport.
> Starship construction would not be a priority if I wanted to establish a
> new colony. Even starship maintenance would be performed at the home port.
> They might have a B- port (Starship repair, but no spaceship construction)
> but more likely a C+ (Full fuel facility). Secondly, 99 people is way too
> few to open up a new world. An initial survey, sure, but how long ago do
> you want the Imperial presence here to date back to? If it's more than 20
> years this planet would've been surveyed already. It's one of the top
> goodies of the subsector. Can you imagine anyone passing this one up and
> go settle Lassus instead?

You have a point.  OK.  Let's go for adventure potential.  Adriano was a
normal world with a population of 7 or 8 until a few years ago, when a
plague so violent and untreatable appeared and killed off the entire
population, as per your suggestion.  This will now be the single most
important feature of the entire subsector, as research will show that it
was a modified Ricercaran disease which _must_ have been deliberately
spread.  Who would gain by murdering an entire planetary population?
A mystery, and an overwhelmingly important one that must be solved soon!

(We won't leave this a mystery for ever, since it is my intention to decide
on all such details in this forum, as part of the GMing exercise originally
mentioned.)

> >Prison planet might be OK, but the "who?" is a problem.  That's why I chose
> >this one for the "plague planet".
>
> There's no reason why you should restrict yourself to one of each kind, you
> know.

Oh, I don't know about that.  HAving multiple prison planets, or planets
whose population was wiped out by plagues, in one subsector strikes me as
being too coincidental to be believable.  That's why, by the way, I think
we'll tie the Adriano plague in with Ricercar somehow.  I like the story
"hooks" to be as tangled as possible...


Regarding the question of the Scout base at Bach:

> >Supporting Type S couriers jumping back and forth from Madrigal to the
> >Imperial X-Boat route station at Forqueray...
>
> What kind of support would they need there?

Routine maintenance and refueling.  It's probably not a very large base.


> >> The world is the property of the Simpson Memorial Foundation. ...
> >
> >Not a bad idea, but I already used it to explain Galliard...
>
> You could have more than one scientific institution per sub-sector, you
> know. ;-)

Possibly.  Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4694
Date: 02 Oct 92 21:25:54 EDT
From: Steve Higginbotham <71035.1211@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Gamba subsector, belatedly...(and George, too)

Re the Gamba subsector:

	I just got around to looking over the last few nights worth.  I have a few questions
about the GMing exercise:

	1)  Where is the Gamba subsector?  Things would be significantly different if it were
in the Trojan Reaches, as opposed to Core.

	2)  What is in the surrounding nine subsectors?  The artificial subsector boundaries
have always appalled me.  If there were a world like Trin just over the border in the next
subsector, the situation will be REALLY different.  And the hypothetical players can get from
the center of Gamba to one of the adjacent subsectors in only four weeks.

	3)  What type of group of characters are these hypothetical adventurerers?  Mercenary
types don't use the same kind of adventures as merchants (who probably would leave anyway).
Explorers/scouts would want something different than the merchants.  Or are these guys
supposed to be the generic thugs that GDW assumes in so many of their adventures?


>So, at least one other GM looks at this and decides that we need those standard
>items: "the university planet", the "plague world", the ancient site, and the
>"lost colony".  What subsector would be complete without all four?

Well, any I designed, for one.  These four stereotypes are all well and good, but they have
been overused to the point of boredom.

I don't like the "plague world".  What kind of plague is there that TL14 techniology shouldn't
be able to deal with?  Yes, I've read "Speaker for the Dead", but I'm not willing to bet that
something like the Descolada couldn't be beaten by Imperial technology.

As to "Ancient sites", I've never bothered to use one.  Mostly because everyone I've ever
played with has been completely turned off by the idea of playing archeologist.  And if it's
not archeology, it's dungeon plunging.

"lost colonies" are usually good for one adventure.  Seldom for more than one.  So I usually
don't bother.  But I don't have any religious objections to the presence of one.

"University Planets" I don't buy.  Not until someone can show me a "University country" on
Earth.  Talk about overspecialization.  Not to mention that the level of available shipping
already described wouldn't be able to handle the off-planet support required.


>Once we've discussed the explanations a bit more, we'll move on to the types
>of adventures suggested by the worlds, and the combinations of worlds, in the
>subsector.

Since you seem to have already decided "how things are", I guess I don't have anything more
to add.



George:

>You'd have to avoid referring to interstellar travel via a week-long
>hyperspace as "jump".  You'd have to try and keep "Imperium" out of
>it for most intents and purposes.  All alien race names would be
>verboten.  Star system names might even be covered.

	"jump" has been in use in scifi for at least 40 years.
	"Imperium" is a good latin word for Empire.  It also has been used since the 60s in scifi.
(Anyone remember Perry Rhodan???)
	"Vargr" is a Scandinavian word for wolf.
	"Aslan" cannot be copyrighted, since the original copyright (C.S. Lewis's) has expired.
And the form they gave the Aslan seems to bear more than a passing resemblance to the guys
in the "Chanur" stories, by C.J. Cherryh (which I just reread.)
	"Efate" is an Island in the Pacific ocean.
	"Regina" is a city in Canada.
	"Mora" is a coach for the New Orleans Saints.
	"Zyra" was lifted from the movie version of "When Worlds Collide".
	The "Sword Worlds" individual names were taken from history, myth, and fiction.  The
collective name is from "Space Viking" by H. Beam Piper.  Even the culture seems awfully like
Piper's Sword Worlds.


> Weapon names like "7mm Assault Rifle" or "RAM GL" or "PGMP" are probably out.

There is or was a Swiss 7mm assault rifle.  So I doubt that that is copyrightable.  "PGMP"
is probably covered, though.  "RAM GL" is probably not.  Didn't the Army use that some years
back for one of their projects?  "ACR" isn't copyrightable - the Army has been running its "ACR
Competition" for years now to come up with the infantry weapon for next century.

					----Steve

  "Actually, I think he was concerned with YOU attacking him through
Topas.  And possibly New Colchis.  He was just too polite to say so."
                         ---attributed to FAdm Hari Helsson

^Z

------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4695
From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Subject: On Gamba Subsector
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 92 9:34:21 PDT


Having only recently gotten back onto the TML, I find the dialogue
on Gamba to be the most interesting, constructive thing to have been
brought up in a while, and would love to get involved in my own inimitable
fashion, but to do so I need to know something thatI don't think has been
brought up yet: precisely where IS Gamba? If it's not critical, I can
make some suggestions, and tie Gamba in with canonical Imperial history
- -- leaving the subsector itself unrestricted in any but the broadest
terms (approximate century of first exploration, presence of alien nations
and/or the Imperium, etc) to allow "Imperial space" gamers to tie Gamba in
with what they're doing. Has anyone ruled on this yet?

- --
metlay            | and she's a master of return hitting
atomic city       | giving rhythm to her posts
                  | so you read her and think hey it sounds good
metlay@netcom.com | and wish her posts had a soundtrack too    (f. ercolessi)

------------------------------

Bundle: 393
Archive-Message-Number: 4696
Date: 03 Oct 92 16:20:10 EDT
From: Steve Higginbotham <71035.1211@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Challenge 64 and the virus...

I just managed to lay my hands on Challenge 64.

I realize that the dreaded "Cymbeline virus" is old news to all of you, but
I thought I should point out an example of the abject stupidity of the lads
who are desparately reaching out to find an excuse for TNE:  the trip from
the Solomani Rim to the Zhodani border.  I notice in the article "When
Empires Fall" that the trip is described as 920 parsecs.  Pretty good
guess.  But wrong.  Getting out my Imperium map, I notice that the straight
route is about 240 parsecs.  Going the scenic route through Home/Aldebaran
stretches the trip to 350 parsecs.  If you go by way of the Hive homeworld,
you might get up to 500 parsecs.  If you go 90% of the way there, decide
you are too tired to make it, and turn back, and then when you are 90% of
the way home you decide you can make it after all, and so turn back again,
that trip is only 880 parsecs.   COME ON, you GDW studs.  Get it right.

I also notice that all the wonderful things they ascribe to the "Cymbeline
transponders" are things that we can do quite well without resorting to AI.

And they back-dated the discovery at Cymbeline by 40 years.

Are the guys at GDW even making an ATTEMPT at consistency???  It seems not.
<sigh>


I also notice the first hints of the method they have decided on to shift
old campaigns into the future:  their sleeper clubs are now offering
people a chance to sleep past Hard Times.  A remarkable idea, that.

WOULD YOU TRUST your life to a stranger during Hard Times???
Most everyone I know is too paranoid to trust their life to their friends,
much less a total stranger.  "Yes sir, we can guarantee that you won't be
broken up into spares for the body banks during your 70 year sleep."

                       ---Steve

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 394  4697 03-Oct-1992 CS171308011@UTS  The 4.5th Frontier War (Chapter 5 Part
 394  4698 04-Oct-1992 timothy k istia  Re: Gamba Subsector << A few of my own
 394  4699 05-Oct-1992 Adrian Hurt      Re: Gamba subsector << timothy k istian
 394  4700 05-Oct-1992 "Paul L. Marten  Gamba subsector << From: Steve Higginbo
 394  4701 05-Oct-1992 BARANSKI@VEAMF1  Copyrights et al << RE: gwh@lurnix.COM
 394  4702 05-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Gamba Notes << Steve Higginbotham comme
 394  4703 05-Oct-1992 CS171308011@UTS  Gamba---> Galli-Yard Shipyards << Howdy
 394  4704 06-Oct-1992 George William   Challenge 65 << Just picked up Challeng

------------------------------

Bundle: 394
Archive-Message-Number: 4697
Date:    Sat, 3 Oct 1992 16:59:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: The 4.5th Frontier War (Chapter 5 Part 3)

Copyright 1992, by Scott Kellogg
                      THE 4.5TH COLUMNISTS
                               by
                          Scott Kellogg
                            - XXVII -
     Almost silently, figures carrying stretchers were hurried out
of Flamboyant's main lock and loaded into a G-Carrier.  The clicks
of armored heels distorted in the mutated acoustics of the hanger
to sound like dripping water.  The scent of blood wafted like an
icy perfume to where Tuerz froze, hidden under the Flamboyant's
starboard main landing gear wheel bogie.  He stood as a statue of
terror clutching the cold metal laser pistol close to his face for
all the comfort it offered.  The sickly sweet flavored stench of
blood and explosives tickled his nose as his hackles stood up in
sharp patches of pure hate.  Bile rose in his throat as he
recognized the stretcher cases being loaded by human shaped armor
with inhuman precision.
                           - XXVIII -
     ...One...  no, two leaving.
     Tuerz flattened himself against a wall in an alley as two
figures exactly the same height and weight came out of the Space
Winds bar.  They walked down the street heading for the docking
bay.
     He listened...  Only one left inside moving around...  A
cough:  human, male:  Whezel Kiriat.
     Tuerz strode in the front door:  a picture of seductiveness
wrapped in a black feather boa.  The black dress caressed his
bright red fur.  It was a strapless affair that showed the deep
cleavage of his two, five millimeter semi-automatic pistols.  It
came down far above mid-thigh, just covering the garters that held
two more of the tiny pistols.
     "Why hello Miss Tuerz!" boomed Whezel with a smile.
     "Hello, Whezel." returned Tuerz demurely.  "I'm looking for my
crewmates.  I was supposed to meet them here but I'm afraid I'm a
little late.  You don't know where they've gone do you?"
     "Why uh... no, I'm afraid I don't know where they are...  but
now that I think of it, they did say they'd be back soon.  Yes
that's right.  They asked me to tell you to wait here for them.
They'll be back shortly."
     Tuerz tail wagged slightly, "Well then you'll just have to
keep me company won't you?"  Tuerz hoisted himself up on the bar
and sat with his legs crossed under the very tight and brief dress.
He inclined his head and motioned Whezel to come closer.
     Whezel Kiriat moved his ponderous weight over eagerly and sat
on a bar stool close to Tuerz.
     Tuerz leaned his head and shoulders back, both emphasizing and
aiming his cleavage.  Whezel took a deep breath, beads of sweat
broke out on his greasy forehead.
     "Let's have some wine." Tuerz purred softly.
     Whezel jumped up clumsily and hustled around the bar.
"Anything you say!  Have some Zilan eiswein around here
somewhere... Nothing too good for...." He continued chattering
nervously as he hunted under the bar, while with one eye trying to
look up Tuerz skirt.
     Tuerz just smiled while his tail waved languidly and
alluringly.
     Finally, Whezel produced a pair of wine glasses and a sealed
bottle of wine  "Fine stuff this is:  '53 eiswein, it comes all the
way from over in Aramis subsector..."  He fumbled with the seal and
popped the cork sending it flying across the room.  Eagerly, he
poured Tuerz a glass and held it out to him in a shaking hand.
     Tuerz tail waved stiffly as he flipped the boa around Whezel's
neck before taking his the offered glass.  "Do you think it will be
long before my crewmates get back?"
     "We have some time.  I don't know where they went."
     Tuerz sniffed the wine and sipped.
     "Are you sure?"  He playfully wrapped the boa around Whezel.
     "I'm sorry, I have no idea."
     "I think you do."
     "I...."
     The plasteel cable in the boa cut the words off.  The cold end
of Tuerz iridium plated laser pistol found the man's nose.  Tuerz
tail finally wagged with genuine pleasure as Whezel's eyes went
wide in terror.  "So tell me, just where are they?"
                            - XXIX -
     Tuerz sighed as he wiped the scalpel carefully and examined
his specimen.  It had started badly.  Tuerz was too excited to do
the job nice and slow.  Already the fingers had been sacrificed
just to slake some of Tuerz thirst.
     Whezel was mostly bald to start with, the tuft of hair was not
a proper trophy even when you included the skin of the bald pate.
     But his mustache....
                             - XXX -
     Tuerz began twirling his laser pistol...
     Toe bone disconnected from the foot bone...
     Foot bone disconnected from the heel bone...
     Heel bone disconnected from the ankle bone...
     Ankle bone disconnected from the leg bone...
     Leg bone disconnected from the knee bone...
     Knee bone disconnected from the thigh bone...
     Thigh bone disconnected from the...

     "I'll talk..."
     Tuerz smiled as the laser pistol's target designator flicked
over the next threatened target.  He paused to sniff the smell of
the cooked meat of Whezel's right leg.
                            - XXXI -
     The hospital was deserted.
     A thin layer of dust had built up by the air filters.  Several
florescent panels were out.  One was flickering.
     Time passed...
     The panel flicked...
     After six minutes Tuerz ears picked it up:  A slight shuffle
as a guard shifted his muscles.  Sixteen meters away.
     Silently, he slunk down the corridor towards the sound.
Again, he froze.
     Four minutes later, he got his second signal:  a sigh thirteen
meters away.  A quick triangulation:  fourteen meters off the side
of the corridor in the third room off the side.  'That sigh will be
the last sound you make.'
     Not true, his head sizzled as bone and tissue vaporized under
an X-ray beam while his clothes rustled slightly as he slumped in
his chair.  But, in all fairness it was his last voluntary sound.
     'Ten out of ten for execution, Five for style:  He never had
a chance to suffer.'
     Tuerz glanced at the fallen gauss rifle:  powerful, but
clumsy, big, and very noisy.  He strapped it on his back.  A psi
helmet?...  could be useful...
                            - XXXII -
     Tuerz walked calmly into the medical lounge.  Four physicians,
seven nurses.  One looked up and caught a silenced five millimeter
slug on the bridge of his nose.  He fell over backward with a loud
crash.  Tuerz calmly picked his next target and squeezed the laser
pistol's trigger.  The doctors jumped up.  But none of them were
armed.
     Tuerz teeth shone as he waded into the room flooding the floor
and spattering the walls with blood as he came.  He was careful:
not a single wasted shot.  At first they tried to run but they were
quickly herded into a corner of the room.  Two tried desperately to
reach for communicators but neither lived to lift the receiver.
     In panic, the others threw coffee cups and books but none even
came close.  Some began to pray as the grinning angel of death sent
them to their reward.
     The last physician alive was on her knees crying when Tuerz
simply said, "It's all right, come on."
     She froze for a moment with tears streaming down her cheeks as
Tuerz waved his pistol toward the door.  Slowly, she rose to her
feet as though in a dream and climbed over the blood spattered
bodies of her friends.
     "It's all right," cooed Tuerz reassuringly, "We're going down
to the low berths and get some friends.  Do exactly what I say and
maybe I won't kill you."
                           - XXXIII -
     Kfoks could barely sit up in the low berth when Tuerz shoved
the gauss rifle into his arms.  Inside the regeneration tank,
Jietlshaiepr began to show signs of consciousness.  Tuerz herded
the doctor towards Rackan's low berth with his pistol.  Gresha was
too sick to be of much use.  Shtam would make it as a walking
wounded.
     Jietlshaiepr would be a stretcher case for a while, till her
psionics could get to work.
     They'd done some cute work on Gdeerzorr.  The slugs and the
grenade had been removed and she was lying in a regen chamber.
Why?
     That left Kfoks, Rackan, Kaezorr, Niedrsha, and Miakr at full
charge, reflected Tuerz.
     He eyed the doctor carefully as she monitored the revival
phase, "If she keeps working like this, I just might let her
live...
     ...Nahh."
                            - XXXIV -
     Jietlshaiepr watched tiredly as Tuerz sent the hypo home into
the cephalic vein of her left arm.  He scrubbed the spot with
disinfectant and folded the arm up at the elbow.  She closed her
eyes and opened her mind to listen carefully to what her nerves
were telling her.
     Yes, the psi booster was starting to take effect... Then the
injuries slowly reported themselves.  Two ribs cracked...  They've
been set and were already half knitted...  The serratus anterior
muscle has a rip in it...  Just nicked the pectoralis major...
missed my mammary by a centimeter and a half...  The armor must
have slowed it considerably, the lung is undamaged...
     The humerus is only bruised... but the biceps tissue is badly
ripped and is half missing...  Minor damage to the triceps and
deltoid... No damage to the brachial artery luckily... the bullets
must have missed by millimeters...
     With a psionic x-ray in her head she began to heal what she
could.  Tissue lost would have to be regrown and that's awfully
slow.  She deepened her concentration on the injured bones mentally
taking over the process of knitting the bone and healing tissue.
     Twenty minutes later she opened her eyes.  Niedrsha was
watching her carefully.  He caught up her left hand, "Hey babe,
what's the story?"
     She smiled weakly, "Right arm's out of order.  Psionics can
only accelerate healing so much, and I've just about used all my
juice."
     Niedrsha leered wickedly and leaned close, "Well, I'll just
have to give you one of my custom psi boosts..."
     Jietlshaiepr smiled as she lifted a plastic vial to her lips.
Carefully, she bit into the straw to start the fluid flowing, and
began to suck voraciously at the fluid contained there.  The
regeneration diet supplement tasted bitter sweet as it coursed down
her throat.  Regeneration calls for high sugar and protein
concentration to rebuild damaged tissues.
     Niedrsha just stared at her teeth.
     Kfoks poked his muzzle around the door, "Sorry to break up the
party, but we're double parked outside..."
                            - XXXV -
     The main chamber of the settlement was not in a uniform state
of disrepair.  Close to the starport hangers there were a few
buildings which had decent facades.  Many of the others had been
ransacked for parts.  Some of the buildings were quite large.  The
stolen grav ambulance was well concealed in the abandoned building.
     Shtam was looking pale as he surveyed the group.  Radiation
drugs had taken their toll.  It would take time to build up his
strength, but time was not in abundance. "Look," he said tiredly,
"As far as they know, we are in the hospital and only Tuerz is on
the loose.  Odds are they got teams out there looking for him.
What ever they are hiding here, they do not need to hide any more.
Right now they must be feeling pretty safe."
     "But who ARE they?" wondered Miakr, "WHERE are they?  What the
Viepchakl are they hiding?  This doesn't make sense.  The whole
place is practically deserted, abandoned mines all over the
surface, nobody in town, and the handful in town are a bunch of
zombies."
     Shtam nodded, "I've been thinking about that, let me put this
in front of you...
     "Suppose you wanted to take over an interstellar government.
How do you do it?  If you launch a full scale offensive, you get a
full scale reprisal right back in your lap.  But... what if you
come in the back door?...  Take a sparsely populated planet... wipe
the population out and substitute them with your forces."
     Jietlshaiepr nodded, "The butcher, the baker, the starport
machinist:  impostors."
     Kfoks thought aloud.  "You couldn't kill everyone who came
through.  If no ships never came back, somebody'd get damn
suspicious."
     "Waitaminit," interjected Niedrsha, "Ralampago...  He'd know
something was up.  Yeah, that's why they took 'em out.  .."
     Miakr looked skeptical.  "Ok, maybe you're right, but that
still doesn't explain what they're hiding.  A secret base?  This
place is falling apart around us.  And we've checked out just about
everywhere else...
     "Except...  The old base..."
     Shtam shook his head.  "It's too radioactive:  look what it
did to me.  Also, it is in ruins."
     Miakr cocked his head, "Well, suppose it wasn't radiation..."
     "Yeah, *sure* right..."
     "Wait a minute, I mean suppose it wasn't radioactive *slag*,
but something else... like a particle accelerator?"
     Kfoks nodded, "That ruin is an old fighter base...  It might
be in ruins on the surface, but what about in the bunkers?..."
                            - XXXVI -
     The door to the mining colony's air raid shelter had been
deliberately hidden, somebody had wanted it to look disused, but it
clearly had been used frequently.  A security measure that had
started with a good idea, but camouflage deteriorates when
constantly disturbed.
     The muffled sounds of machinery echoed up from below barely
audible even to Tuerz sensitive ears off the sound proofed walls.
He was on point, forty meters from the team, cautiously edging down
the stairway leading into the bowels of the planet.  The floor here
was very clean, and would have clattered with noise if his boots
hadn't been left behind.
     Barefoot, he padded softly around a landing when he saw the
shadow around a corner.  Definitely human form:  unarmored,
fourteen meters away, no sound coming from him.  Not even
breathing.  Tuerz bit down on the implanted radio in his jaw three
times.
     Forty meters up the stairs, Kfoks held up a hand to the
others:  DANGER.
     Tuerz waited silently.  He strained his sensitive ears
carefully tuning out the sound of his own heart beat.
     No noise.
     Tuerz waited.
     No movement at all.
     Tuerz waited....  Weird...  Humans don't stand like that...
they shift, they make noise, they BREATHE.  The group forty meters
away makes more noise than this guy fourteen meters away.
     Nothing.
     Tuerz took a step.
     Nothing.
     His own silent steps sounded like a crash of symbols in his
tuned ears.  He paused five meters away from the corner to listen
for sounds his steps might have covered...  Nothing.
     Silently, he edged up to the corner.  The shadow seemed to
come from a light set on the wall around the corner.  Tuerz guessed
the light to be three meters down the wall according to the way the
corridor was lit.  By his shadow, the guard was half a meter from
the light.  That's where Tuerz prepared to fire.
     He poised to spring,
     and jumped.
     Tuerz flashed around the corner like a streak of lightning.
The thunder of his laser pistol struck the guard directly in the
forehead.
     The crown of his head crackled and exploded in flames.
Burning plastic and metal fell to the floor at his feet as he
slowly brought up his gauss rifle.
     Tuerz fired five shots in rapid secession as the remnant of a
human face glared at him hatefully.  The arm holding the gauss
rifle fell away as he continued to advance.  The x-rays sleeted
through the guard's body as he came on.
     Suddenly, the guard froze and fell facedown on the floor with
a loud crash.
                           - XXXVII -
     Niedrsha and Kfoks held the captured gauss rifles at the ready
listening for any sign of reinforcements.
     Miakr looked over the remains of the guard carefully.
"Definitely tech level twelve...  But it kinda looks like a tech
fourteen design...  Like it was copied or something...  The brain
is located in the lower abdomen.  Aim for that.  Head shots aren't
going to do much damage unless you hit in the eyes to blind it."
     He picked up the robot's skull and showed it to Tuerz.  "You
blew out his hydrogen fuel tank.  Lucky it didn't blow up."
     "Weird design:" noted Shtam, "the face and arms appear to be
the only thing made to look human.  The rest of it is plastic.  It
would not even pass a quick glance inspection."
     "That's why it's wearing a combat environment suit." nodded
Miakr.  "This wasn't meant to be seen without clothes.  Put it in
a business suit and you wouldn't be able to tell..."
                           - XXXVIII -
     Davis and Carton were lounging at the computer station.  Davis
sighed without patience as he listened to Carton's endless whine.
     "Look, we just gotta get a better assignment.  I'm sick of
watching the inventory.  I just want a chance to *Use* it!"
     Davis's eyes rolled and he turned away to speak over his
shoulder.  "Yeah, well maybe the Skipper just got sick of hearing
you belly-ache."
     Carton failed to hear the annoyance in Davis' voice, "Nah!
They just wanted my brains here minding the store.  But I'm bored!
Bored!  BORED!  BORED!"
     Tuerz brightened his day with a sleet of X-rays.
     Carton's head exploded in a red mist which drenched Davis.
"Yeach!" bawled Davis as he turned around on Carton in disgust and
annoyance.
     Davis just had the time to recognize that Carton's mouth was
shut forever when Tuerz vaporized his face with high energy
photons.
     "He lost his head." sighed Kfoks as he glanced in the doorway.
"Good shooting, Tuerz."
     Tuerz strode into the terminal room sniffing the aroma of
fried brains.  He kicked Davis body from the chair, "All clear.
Looks like this falls in your court Miakr."
     Miakr stepped into the room and slipped on Carton's blood.
Kfoks grabbed his arm as he went down and hauled him up.  "Please,"
asked Kfoks, "with the computer:  no slip ups."
     Miakr dropped his eyes, "Right.  It shouldn't be too hard.
this guy's still logged in..."
                            - XXXIX -
     Miakr nodded up at the map on screen.  "They've moved the ship
over to the base.  They kept the damn thing in plain sight.  Right
in the ruins."  Three icons on the map lit up bright red.  "Nobody
could get in there 'cause of the particle accelerator batteries
located up there."
     Shtam eyed the screen. "How is the ship?"
     "She's been slated for inspection.  Seems they're kinda
curious about us...  Pretty heavily guarded..."
     "The equipment?"
     "Locked up in a magazine near the ship... most of it anyway...
Looks like they took most of the robots over to a lab... For all
the good that will do them..."
     Niedrsha raised an eyebrow, "What do you mean?"
     "Well, Vole's got so much security protection, they'll never
get him working.  I rewrote the PPO2 warbot's command codes, with
the security protection already in place, it could take them days
to just start them."  Miakr laughed.  "It took me three days to get
inside them, oughta take them a week!  The robots from the Vixen
don't have any brains.  As far as I can see they left the master
unit on the ship.  There is no note that it was removed from the
main computer.  And the Tilly's have no brains either, not to
mention that they're built for Vargr operation.  No human would be
able to..."
     Kfoks grabbed Miakr by the shoulder, "You know where the
Tilly's are?"
     "Yeah..."
     Kfoks teeth shone in an almost human grin.  His voice dropped
to a murderous growl, "Show me..."

------------------------------

Bundle: 394
Archive-Message-Number: 4698
From: timothy k istian soholt <xoanon@carina.unm.edu>
Subject: Re: Gamba Subsector
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 14:49:43 MDT

A few of my own thoughts on Gamba subsector:

Adrian Hurt writes:

> Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> > 0105  Fantasia      A99A522-8           NI         Y

> > Large waterworld with either large colony or small independent
> > population. Could be a co-op seaharverster outfit.

> This is another one of the classic Traveller worlds.  Will someone please
> explain to me how a TL 8 world can support a class A starport?  As I
> understand it, a class A starport can, by definition, build and repair
> starships, i.e. jump drives, i.e. must be at least TL 9.  Bases, captive
> worlds or other forms of outside influence might allow some outsider to
> own, run and supply the starport independantly of the planet, but none of
> these apply here.

How about having a major shipping line set up a refit base here? Overall
tech level is kept just high enough to assure some comfort to citizens/
employees (government 2 _is_ corporation, isn't it? or is my memory
going?), while starport facilities are top-of-the line, but not acces-
sible outside the workplace.


Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:

> Rob Dean writes:

> >> 0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
> >>
> >> I'd drop the TL to 0.
> >
> >Represents the TL of the automatic distress beacon...(-:  (5 is the minimum
> >to support broadcast radio, isn't it?)
>
> I define TL as "Maximum sustainable by local population".

How about this: the tech was recently upgraded when the surviving
members of the survey team decided to quit the Service and settle
on the planet. (Remember that a population code of 0 means less
than ten people, not no people.)They're cordial enough to trav-
elers, but they do their best to keep incoming ships to the land-
ing pad they've laid out near their homes, and they ask visitors
to get their business over with and leave. The Scouts are, in
fact, protecting the indigenous population (which doesn't show up
on the surveys because they doctored the records) from exploi-
tation -- anyone have any ideas what the natives could have that
would be significant enough to Imperial interests that they
would be in mortal danger if the rest of the galaxy found out?
Atmospheric taint would likely be large amounts of water in the
air.

> >> 0803  Weelkes       C112888-A  S        NA         Y
> >>
> >> Another of these punk worlds with huge populations.
> >
> >Yes, but luckily there's only one in this subsector to explain.  It doesn't
> >stretch credulity too far to think that there is one world headed toward
> >being industrial that started life as a mining colony, does it?
>
> No, but hundreds of millions? No mining colony needs that many people. IMO
> these people's ancestors _couldn't_ leave, for whatever reason.

It may not have _needed_ that many people, but imagine a rush simi-
lar to the California Gold Rush of the 19th century. Folks with very
little money bought low passage to Weelkes, visions of lanthanum (or
whatever) dancing in their heads. Clever and unscrupulous outfit-
ters, restauranteurs, etc. kept prices high while the poor prospect-
ors tried to strike it rich enough to retire. As the resources began
to play out, competition threatened to send the small businessmen
under, so they started cooperating. Eventually, a planet-wide corpo-
ration came into being, still stiffing the population for its own
gain. When the planet got a little small for the corporate execs,
they expanded operations offworld.

> >> 0805  Baldwyn       A625343-A  S        NI         Y
> >>
> >> Again a Class A starport without the population base to support it.
> >> I'd cut the starport class down to C and put an Ancient Base being
> >> investigated by the Scouts here.
> >
> >Well, I already put the Ancient site at Galliard.  Two might be too many to
> >put in this subsector. Any other ideas? As it stands now, the only important
> >thing that I know about this system is that it is on the X-Boat line.
>
> The X-boat line explains the Scout base perfectly. As for the Class A
> starport, I'm predudiced against starship yards supported by a few
> thousand people to dig the ore, refine the metal, build the machines to
> build the tools to build the engines etc.. Whenever I find a Class A
> starport on a world with less than half a million inhabitants, I tend
> to look for an outside source of buyers for the ships like the Navy. If
> I can't come up with a good explanation, I change the rating. (That's a
> basic attitude. When I come across some unusual combination of stats I
> spend 5 minutes trying to come up with an interesting explanation. Four
> times out of five I succeed. But I don't insist on explaining everything.
> Sometimes it is better to change a rating to something sensible.)

Why not have the base on Baldwyn be a full-fledged way station? Baldwyn
would be the center of Scout activity in the subsector -- X-Boat produc-
tion, ship repair, logistics, all would be handled from Baldwyn instead
of the capital.

> >Hmmm...I'll have to think about this.  I don't like the idea of having
> >quite so many regressed colonies, but it's not a bad explanation for the
> >current set-up.
>
> The Gamban Empire lasted only long enough to put people on a lot of the
> worlds. None of the colonies were self-supporting when the Empire fell
> (The civil war was mostly between nations on Susato). Hence the whole-
> sale regression.

I think Rob mentioned Daibei as a possible location for the Gamba sub-
sector. That's far to coreward if I remember correctly (all my TRAVEL-
LER stuff is in Los Alamos, so I can't look it up right now). Near
Vargr space. It would be an interesting twist if the Gamban Empire
were a largely Vargr nation.


- -- Tim Soholt (xoanon@carina.unm.edu), The Man With No .sig

------------------------------

Bundle: 394
Archive-Message-Number: 4699
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Gamba subsector
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 9:56:53 BST

timothy k istian soholt <xoanon@carina.unm.edu> writes:
>
> A few of my own thoughts on Gamba subsector:
>
> Adrian Hurt writes:
>
> > > 0105  Fantasia      A99A522-8           NI         Y
>
> > This is another one of the classic Traveller worlds.  Will someone please
> > explain to me how a TL 8 world can support a class A starport?  As I
> > understand it, a class A starport can, by definition, build and repair
> > starships, i.e. jump drives, i.e. must be at least TL 9.
>
> How about having a major shipping line set up a refit base here? Overall
> tech level is kept just high enough to assure some comfort to citizens/
> employees (government 2 _is_ corporation, isn't it? or is my memory
> going?), while starport facilities are top-of-the line, but not acces-
> sible outside the workplace.

That might work, but either your memory is going or mine is - mine says
that 1 is corporate government, 2 is participating democracy.  But the
locals might allow an outside company to set up a starport, and then
charge rent for it.  Or the starport may have all the docks, cranes and
grav vehicles of a class A starport, but you have to bring your own spare
parts.

> > >> 0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
> > >>
> > >> I'd drop the TL to 0.
> > >
> > >Represents the TL of the automatic distress beacon...(-:  (5 is the minimum
> > >to support broadcast radio, isn't it?)
> >
> > I define TL as "Maximum sustainable by local population".

Either there is one family living there, or the local population was wiped
out by something but some of the machinery is still around.  That class E
starport on a water world of TL 5 makes me wonder if an enterprising team
of adventurers might be able to pick up an aircraft carrier for free? :-)

Or, perhaps there are a few people there, survivors of a ship which crash
landed.  I can just imagine their faces when the survey team said "This is
a _survey_ mission, not a rescue mission.  But we've noted your presence -
a rescue team should be along some time soon" - just before the Imperium
collapsed. :-)

> > >> 0803  Weelkes       C112888-A  S        NA         Y
> > >>
> > >> Another of these punk worlds with huge populations.
> > >
> > >Yes, but luckily there's only one in this subsector to explain.  It doesn't
> > >stretch credulity too far to think that there is one world headed toward
> > >being industrial that started life as a mining colony, does it?
> >
> > No, but hundreds of millions? No mining colony needs that many people. IMO
> > these people's ancestors _couldn't_ leave, for whatever reason.

How about another race of aliens?  Either very small aliens, or something
like Star Trek's Horta.

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian   |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 394
Archive-Message-Number: 4700
Subject: Gamba subsector
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 08:59:31 EDT
From: "Paul L. Martenis" <leeds@galaxy.harvard.edu>


From: Steve Higginbotham <71035.1211@CompuServe.COM>
>Re the Gamba subsector:
>Since you seem to have already decided "how things are", I guess I don't have
>anything more to add.

	Not all of us have decided, Steve.

	Rather than coming to some kind of consensus, I would like the folks
on the list come up with a variety of interpretations of the subsector data.
I am a very inexperienced GM, and it might be more educational for me (and
others) to see how many different ways GMs can use the same data.  Steve, and
everybody else, if you've got other ideas, I for one would love to see them.

	If somebody would please send me the raw data (I knew I should have
saved it), I'll take a crack at it myself.  As I said, I'm inexperienced, but
perhaps my approach will be fresh enough to keep Steve happy....

a former lurker,
		Paul
- ---
Paul L. Martenis                E-mail: leeds@cfa
60 Garden St.                       or: leeds@cfa.harvard.edu
Cambridge, MA  02138 USA        Phone:  (617) 495-7284

------------------------------

Bundle: 394
Archive-Message-Number: 4701
Date:    Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:16:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: BARANSKI@VEAMF1.NUSC.NAVY.MIL
Subject: Copyrights et al

RE: gwh@lurnix.COM (George W Herbert)

"You'd have to avoid referring to interstellar travel via a week-long
hyperspace as "jump".  You'd have to try and keep "Imperium" out of
it for most intents and purposes.  All alien race names would be
verboten.  Star system names might even be covered."

"Heck, the task system is probably copyrighted and -able, so it's
probably out, too.  Weapon names like "7mm Assault Rifle" or
"RAM GL" or "PGMP" are probably out."

The only thing GDW could sue for is something that *they* made up.  So, yes,
you'd have to swear off 'Imperium', and most of the aliens that GDW made up.
But you could have aliens as similiar to GDW's as the originals GDW copied them
from.

Things like "jump", "ACR" are too generic for GDW to have a legitimite gripe.
RAM GL you could probably get away with.  PGMP is probably out.

But what the heck :-> what's in a name? :->

Jim.

------------------------------

Bundle: 394
Archive-Message-Number: 4702
Date:     Mon, 5 Oct 92 13:52:10 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Gamba Notes

Steve Higginbotham comments on the number of stereotyped worlds that have
been discussed for use in the Gamba subsector.

Let me take a moment to go over the origin of this thread:  I have gotten
bored with waiting for TNE to come out, or for GDW to dribble out bits of
information on the project, and I wanted to see some discussion here on the
TML.  Therefore, I started talking about the latest thing that I have been
working on, which is a single randomly rolled subsector, much like one
mihgt have started out with many years ago, when Traveller and I were both
much younger.  Since the initial world rolls were not terribly inspiring,
I thought that we might have a little fun by talking over what could be
done with such an unpromising set of statistics.

So, I'd like to play this as what I think of as "the literary game", in
which we are stuck with a set of facts, however unlikely, and have to come
up with some web of description that will explain them.  This means that
we will leave the worlds just as they were rolled, and try to come up with
some explanation, however unlikely.  The real world is awfully unlikely
sometimes, too...

That's rule 1.

Rule 2 is that this is not a democracy.  There is no real goal to all of this
discussion, although you are all welcome to incorporate anything we come up
with into your campaign.  However, for purposes of keeping the discussion
going, I will eventually say "Officially this will be the way it is" and we'll
move on and discuss something else.  There's nothing like a committee of a
few dozen people to ensure that nothing is ever accomplished...

So, if you don't like the world stereotypes that are being discussed, Steve,
please (!!) jump in and throw in something else.  As I say, the only hard and
fast rule is that I don't want to change any of the rolled stats except as a
last resort.

Location: There is no good location for a subsector with these characteristics,
since anyplace in the main body of the Imperium (Earth-Core-Vland) has been
settled for far too long.  I'd otherwise be inclined to put it somewhere on
the trailing side of the great rift, so that it was empty space (or nearly
so) out to the spinward.  As a second possibility, we could put it just to
the spinward of the Five Sisters subsector, which would give you a good idea
of how isolated I'd like it to be.

Any other ideas?  For purposes of discussion, I'd like to make it clear that
there is nothing interesting (like a TL15 industrial planet) just across the
boundaries in any direction, so that the players are obligated to stay within
the subsector.  In games that I've played, I've really never used more than
one or two subsectors in a campaign, so the theoretical speed of travel
remained theoretical.

As to the type of adventurers:  I'd like to see the subsector set up with
adventure possibilities of as many types as possible.  _My_ usual course
of operations is to set up the background and then determine specific
adventures after the players become available.  The one thing we know would
be difficult is Scout adventures, since (like everywhere else in the
Traveller Universe) most of the real exploration has already been done.

Oh yes. Rule 3--No major changes in Traveller technology may be postulated
for purposes of this discussion.  We'll try to play this "by the book",
although the definition of "the book" may shift around a bit.

Steve objects to the use of plagues because he thinks that TLxx medicine will
be able to handle everything.  Is there anyone out there who is extremely
familiar with the series of medical articles run in The Traveller's Digest?
How did they work out in practice?  Any other comments on this subject?  I'm
still flexible, really...

Rob Dean



------------------------------

Bundle: 394
Archive-Message-Number: 4703
Date:    Mon, 5 Oct 1992 20:44:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: Gamba---> Galli-Yard Shipyards

Howdy all,

0106  Galliard     A100505-E N    NI   Y
X-Boat Link

When I think about Class A starports, I have a little trouble
sometimes.  I tend to envision large international airports:
Dulles, Atlanta, BWI, LAX, Chicago, Heathrow, Newark etc.  Now
those to me say 'Class A'.  However, not one of those has anything
to do with manufacturing capacity.

Where are the big ship builders/aircraft manufacturers?  Well, most
of the US aircraft companies are out on the west coast.  Boeing's
out there in Washington state, Lockheed's in California, the ship
builders aren't exactly in the large population ports either.  GE
Boats are out in Conneticut.  Norfolk is a large place, but it's
not the HUGE place one thinks of when one say's 'Class A' port.

Point being, that the ship building yards may not always mean there
is a large port or a large amount of traffic going in and out.

So, what do we need for a large ship building yard?  Mainly
resources.  Those resources are the material to physically make the
ship, and the technology to make it work.

The technicians needed can be brought in.

The parallel is steel plants.  Now, most people would imagine that
steel mills would be ideally located near large deposits of iron
ore right?  Wrong!  Steel mills are ideally located near large COAL
deposits.  The process of making steel requires more coal than it
does iron ore.  (Pittsburgh?)

Ok, now with economics still working that way, Ship yards need to
be located near large mineral deposits and sufficient technlogy
back there to build it up.  Technicians can be shipped in.

Galliard is one of the main ship builders of Gamba.  The system has
a rich asteroid belt with several drydock asteroids.  The Navy uses
the TL 14 ship yard (Galli-Yard) to maintain some of their older
escorts and as a storage facility for the sector's mothball fleet.
The university of Galliard has a highly accredited naval
architectural and engineering graduate program.

The ancient site there is of course highly classified, however,
rumors indicate that the Galli-Yards, were built over the grounds
of the site.  This has prompted speculation that the ancient site
was originally a shipyard, and that the Navy supposedly took
advantage of the University's excavation/reconstruction of the
site.  The truth of the matter is unknown, but the University
students are known to encourage the rumor.  Indeed, they point to
the presence of the sector's only accredited post graduate naval
archeology program as evidence of the yard's quality.  The Ancient
Society of Engineers is a group of naval architecture and
engineering students which claims to design and maintain ancient
starships.  (Evidence is however that this is simply a group of
drunken students)  :-)

There is also the unexplained date of the founding of the yard:  It
is on the Imperial registry as the oldest operational shipyard, and
is dated as being founded -201,007 years Pre-Imperium.

Virtually all the population is employed at the Galli-Yards, and at
present the yard is capable of docking craft of up to 100,000 tons,
however, there is insufficient dockhands to handle such craft.  The
Navy however, has been known to over-use this facility and (though
uncomfirmed) there are rumors that TL 14 craft as large as 500,000
tons are in mothball orbits around Galliard.

Galli-Yard has been petitioning the Navy for additional funds to
run the yard properly, but the maintainance of TL 14 craft is not
in the high priorties of the Imperial Navy.  The yard has recently
been making overtures to the Scout service and the Marines for
additional funds.  The Galliard University hopes to update their
equipment to rate a TL 15 and thereby regain the Navy's funding and
support.  At present, the Galli-Yard has a very small TL 15
capability, and it is capable of handling small craft of up to 150
tons displacement.  The Navy however has been discouraging the
updating of equipment as it would mean a realignment of forces in
the sector, and loss of contracts made with other yards.

Scott 2G Kellogg

------------------------------

Bundle: 394
Archive-Message-Number: 4704
Subject: Challenge 65
From: gwh@lurnix.COM (George William Herbert)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 16:46:47 -0700


Just picked up Challenge 65.  There's no more on how the Virus works,
but first hints that's it's running around are in the Traveller News Service.
A bunch of K'kree ships got zotted by naval forces for showing improper
transponder codes, and in our friendly neighborhood Domain of Deneb,
some Aslan in the Patrol (with a Azhanti HL class cruiser missing for 3+
years) nearly got zapped after they showed up at the Trin naval
base in a hurry with their transponders disconnected.  They had to use
one-time-code authentication to identify themselves.  I'm willing to
place money (small money 8-) on them having been on a special mission
in the imperial core, that they figured out what's going
on, "safed" their ship by disconnecting the Deyo circuits, and run for
the Domain with the news and warning...

Or maybe not.

Btw, it's the Horror special issue.  One horror MT adventure (knockoff
on The Thing and perhaps T:2) and one hard times adventure.  And a
Merc:2000 adventure by yours truly (I think I may have blown any chance
of ever GMing T:2k or Merc at cons with this and `Suprise Party`).

PS: just got some info from Michelle Sturgeon at GDW.  Don't bother
sending in MT submissions; they're putting off accepting anything
until the TNE rules are out.  If you get a TNE set somehow, then
by all means, submit something for it, but not until then 8-)

- -george william herbert
gwh@lurnix.com  gwh@soda.berkeley.edu

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 395  4705 07-Oct-1992 Matthew D. Gold  Die TNE scum!  Mega Traveller *never* h

------------------------------

Bundle: 395
Archive-Message-Number: 4705
Subject: Die TNE scum!  Mega Traveller *never* happened!
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 15:14:12 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Matthew D. Goldman)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

Don't belive the doom and gloom!  The universe can still be a happy,
yet dangerous place!  There is no need to have the universe as we knew
it end!  The TML writes more about the Traveller (tm) Universe than
GDW anyway!  Ha! We laugh at your silly virus!  We wave #(*&%^#(&$&
in your face.  Your Mother wore Zhodani combat boots and your father
was a Kzanti kitty cat!

Sorry about that.  I was going through my old Traveller stuff
lastnight and realized that I've got plenty of unused ideas, plots,
counterplots and NPC's to run Traveller for the rest of my liffe.  I
may pick up TNE just to have a really bad place for the players to
misjump to.  (They thought Duluth was bad, hee, hee, hee.)

My gaming group is back together after the Renaissance Festival
break, and I'm the referee in two weeks.  I tend to run SF Traveller
based games, I'm tired of the 'dark future' games.  I miss the old
days (tm) when the Imperium was good, and the Zhodani were evil.

I dug out my list of Character careers and found the following.  The
careers with '*' after the name are ones that follow Book-1's
generation system.  The indented groups are sub-paths of one of the
others.  The '()' give credit.  Please note that '(original)' refers
to someone in my old gaming group, not necessarly to me.

	Army (Book 4)
		Artillery
		Cavalry
		Infantry
		Support
		Commando
	Assassins* (Scouts & Assassins)
	Barbarian* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Belters* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Blockade Runners* (original)
	Bureaucrat* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Diplomats* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Doctors* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Engineering Corps*
	Flyers* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Hunter* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	IBIS (Dragon?)
	IBIS Assassins (original)
	Journalist* (original)
	Marines (Book 4)
		Marines
		Support
		Commando
	Merchants (Special Supplement 1)
		Merchant Lines
			Engineering
			Purser's
			Deck
		Free Traders
	Navy (Book 5)
		Flight
		Engineering
		Medical
		Gunnery
		Technical Services
		Line/Crew
	Noble* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Off-World Police* (original)
	Scientist* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Scientist, Research* (original)
	Scouts (Book 6)
		Field
		Bureaucracy
	Scouts (Scouts & Assassins)
		Exploration
		Survelillance
		Tech Support
	Scouts (White Dwarf)
		Security
		Support
		Flight
		Geology
		Ecology
		Contact
	Pirates* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Refugee* (original)
	Rogue* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	Sailors* (Citizens of the Imperium)
	SORAG (SORAG)
		Scientific Branch
		Operations Branch
		Research Branch
		Administrative Branch
	Terrorist* (original)
	Terrorist* (Space Gamer)

I've misplaced my copy of 'Merchants & Merchandice' or they would be
on the list as well.  Does anyone have additional careers?

Does anyone have a copy of 'Merchants & Merchandice' they'd be willing
to sell?  How about old JoTAS?  Or even old Traveller stuff?

Sorry to ramble on so long.

- --
Matthew Goldman              E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com
Fax: (612) 683-3099                   Work: (612) 683-3061

"It's real handy, havin' an Elder God in the band, eh?"

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 396  4706 07-Oct-1992 Derek Wildstar   Long Message from Wildstar << I've been

------------------------------

Bundle: 396
Archive-Message-Number: 4706
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 22:51:47 EDT
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Long Message from Wildstar

I've been off in jumpspace for the last week or so, but now I am getting
around to responding to some of the recent threads here on TML.

About the "Virus" and Challenge 64:

*SIGH*  I've just about given up; someone (actually many someones) at
GDW has forgotten that the name of the game is Science-Fiction Roleplaying.
The Challenge material fails as science-fiction: it fails to consider
the effect of the development of sentient computer chips within the
context of human society.  In other words, the author should pose to him
or her self a series of "What if ..." questions, looking for plausible
answers that present interesting story opportunities.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that the question "What if
someone discovered intelligent computer chips?" has one and only one
answer: "People would build them into walkie-talkies and forget their
very existance."  What about the issue of "all sentient life-forms are
protected citizens of the Imperium".  These sophont computer chips are
naturally-occurring, evolved creatures; definitely life-forms!  Is this
a major form of slavery within interstellar society, or are the Cymbiots
paid employees of the ship owner, free to quit at any time?  If they are
de-facto slaves, how do they feel about it?  They are sentient creatures
capable of forming their own opinions, aren't they?  How have they
affected the computer, robotics, and information industries?  How do
humans feel about these intelligences; are they threatened by such an
alien intelligence?  What are the primary motivations, goals, desires,
and philosophies of these creatures?  Does anyone at GDW have any
functioning brain cells left?

Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but this is *DISCOURAGING*

(The above can be forwarded to GDW if anyone thinks that it will make
any sort of difference at this point.  Personally I feel that GDW is
determined to create a product that will be as much of a commercial
success as Space:1889 and will be as long-lived as Traveller:2300)

Now on a (slightly) more upbeat note, *IF* TNE is at all playable as a
rules system, *AND* if it is adaptable to a different background than
the New Era (both looking like pretty big if's at this point), then how
about all of us here on TML createing a co-operative background history?
One that makes sense, and one that we can all use to build on
one-another's efforts.  TML has the capacity of generating several times
the output of GDW, at least as far as background material is concerned.
I rather like Robert Dean's subsector project as a pilot project for
this sort of thing.

George W. Herbert writes:
> 	Given as how it's set in stone by now, however, that's sort
> of a moot point (oh, shoot the Moot while we're at it).  Moving right along,
> I'm just going to keep writing adventures and such.  I figure it can't
> do too much damage. (heh).  Good backgrounds always are worth working
> with, no matter what the rules are.  I figure that TNE is going to
> be a background worth writing in.  After all, MT was... 8-)

For me, the Rebellion was not even worth playing in.  We used the MT
rules on several occasions, and the Rebellion background once.  All in
all, everyone enjoyed the game; but everyone was also quite sick of
death, destruction, factioanlism and civil war by the time the campaign
ended.  And as near as I can tell right now, the New Era is going to be
even worse.

> 	Every month, GDW puts out a Challenge with +- (argument's sake)
> 15,000 words of Traveller material.  A rough approxomation of TML
> traffic is more like 50kwords, at least 15kwords of which is non-story
> or PBEM related.  I.e. we're doing more talking about Traveller than
> they are publishing by a large amount.
> 	How come it is, then, that with dozens of great posts, rules,
> and ideas bobbing around the group here, there are only a handful
> of us getting published?  Looking around, I strongly suspect that
> there's more talent here than anywhere else in one grouping
> (not impugning the GDW staff or HIWG, but there are a lot'o people
> on TML... 8-) .  So how come nobody here writing stuff and sending
> it to GDW?  While we're here fuming about GDW ignoring or disliking
> the TML list or its people, they're sitting there going "Gee, we've
> got this loud crowd of people that complain and argue a lot and never
> submit us anything." ...

I get the overwhelming impression that nobody at GDW is really
interested in what anyone else has to say.  A lot of the TML traffic is
rules variants, or pertains to one or more divergent background
histories.  Do you really think that GDW is interested in this stuff?

> 	WRITE IT UP AND SEND IT IN!  If you don't think you can write well,
> bounce it off one of the better writers here for editorial comments
> or help.  (I volounteer if need be 8-).  You're energetic enough to
> argue about it for days; why not just write it up and see if GDW buys it?

OK, I'll give it a try.  I have literally reams of stuff here in my
files; it will get typed up and sent here to TML for comment and
criticism.  If anyone thinks that it is worth the postage, I will then
submit it to GDW.  Fair warning, though: more than 90% of it pertains to
Classic Traveller, the Third Imperium era, or to one or more alternate
background histories.

About Stutterwarp, Steve H. writes:
> > Dan:
> >if one was to fire a sandcaster in the path of a stuterwarp ship.
> >When It went to materialize in the cloud of sand what sort of problems
> >would it have (if any).
>
> It would have quite a lot of problems, IF it did something so silly as
> to fly through such.  Since a stutterwarp ship normally fights at ranges
> of several to many light seconds, the odds of it passing through a sand
> cloud are about zero, unless the Captain is a suicidal idiot.  Normally,
> such a ship will stay a couple of hours at six-Gs away from you, and
> your sand won't do anything, except obscure your vision.

How about a stutterwarp-powered missile (or better yet, a whole bunch of
them) launched from a conventional ship.  Instead of high explosive,
have a proximity fuse connected to a sandcaster round.  Have the missile
home in on the stutterwarp ship, and detonate in its path.  If the ship
is not too badly damaged by this, then launch a bunch more, and surround
the ship with sand.  Now that you've gotten the thing to stand still,
you can fire at it with conventional weapons, or come alongside at your
lesiure for a boarding action.

Robert S. Dean's "Gamba Project" (A capital idea!):
A couple of points about my interpretation of world statistics.  First
of all, I interpret them as reflecting the status of the world's
residents, without traders, military or scout personnel, or any Imperial
facilities.

Second, I assume that all Class-A starports are effectively at TL-10
and Class-B starports are effectively TL-9 (even if the world TL is
lower; this simply means that spare parts and technical crews are
imported from off-world).

A couple of worlds strike me as having a good bit of potential:

0109  Motet         C898735-3           AG         Y
Obviously an agro world feeding Madrigal, and maybe other parts of the
subsector as well.  Good destination for traders looking for an unususl
cargo

0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
The industrial powerhouse of the subsector.  I don't believe that
commercially important worlds need to be high-tech.  Madrigal is quite
capable of producing industrial goods that would be useful to worlds
anywhere from TL-3 to TL-9 (which includes most of the worlds in the
subsector).  For export to lower-tech worlds, it probably produces heavy
machinery and mining and agricultural equipment; for high tech worlds,
Madrigal likely exports machine tools, precision equipment, and some
consumer goods.  It also is the major source of refined chemicals and
bulk metals (iron and steel ingots, barstock, plates, pipes and other
useful materials).  Total production is likely to be more than a
hundred million tons annually.  The class B starport is maintained
by and for the convenience of Madrigal's customers, and the cost of imported
skills and technology is part of the cost of doing business.

Madrigal may even be able to fabricate starship hulls, hull components,
drive mounts, weapons systems, turrets, and dozens of other fittings for
spacecraft which can be fabricated with their technology.  These
components can them be shipped to other, higher-tech worlds for
assembly, and installation of the high-tech drives, computers, and
equipment.  In this way, the limited shipyard capacity of the subsector
might be augmented (a shipyard crew could assemble a Liberty ship in
under 100 hours from pre-fab parts; Kaiser even made escort carriers
this way; nearly 100 of these CVE's were built between 1943 and
1945).

Given the government and high law level, I would suggest that Madrigal's
religeon promotes a strong work ethic and a strict code of behavoir.
Since the government is the religeon, such codes would have the force of
law; not a problem for believers, but for off-worlders and
non-believers, the code of conduct, clothing and
behavoir standards, and required observances would be nearly impossible
to keep straight.  Quite possibly unbelievers, heretics, and political
dissidents are exiled to a specific geographic area (probably originally
an undesirable island or sub-continent.  The starport is probably also
located here (off-worlders are unbelievers, after all); believers are
allowed to travel to the starport (but consider it distasteful or
faintly sinful), while unbelievers and offworlders are restricted.

As the only industrial world in the subsector, Madrigal probably is used
to being in a seller's market; there may be increasing tension between
Madrigal and other worlds (primarily Weelkes).  Madrigal's strategy is
probably to try to increase its tech level to stay competitive.

0405  Lawes         EAC9200-8           NI         N
Known locally as "Lawless"; a rough-and-ready mining outpost.

0408  Forqueray     A353546-B  N        NI, P      Y
The primary Imperial Navy base of the area; most of the "permanent"
inhabitabts (thos that show on the UPP) are in some way connected to the
Navy base: contractors, civillian support staff, dependents, merchants
and all the business that would usually surround a major installation.
The TL of 11 probably represents the average amenities enjoyed by the
pernament residents.  The Naval facilities are probably on a par with
usual Imperial Navy practice: TL-14 or TL-15, including shipyards, a
naval medical center, and probably a mothball fleet orbiting somewhere
in the system.  Civillian contractors will happily do work for private
citizens, too (provided such work does not interfere with their Navy
commitments); therefore this world probably has an effectively TL-15
capability for starship construction and repair (but you will probably
pay several times the normal rate for the work).

0501  Pardessus     A114523-E  S        NI         Y
Given the high TL and the scout base here, Pardessus is probably a major
IISS facility; certainly the primary site for Scout construction,
maintainance, training, and operational control in this subsector.  In
many ways it will be the IISS equivalent of Forqueray.

0803  Weelkes       C112888-A  S        NA         Y
Weelkes is almost an industrial world; but it is handicapped by a small
labor force, and an inadequate starport (which probably reflects a
general under-capitalization of the whole economy).  Presumably this is
because an inordinate amount of resources are consumed simply by living
on this rather inhospitable world.  Presumable selected because of the
ready availability of some resource (ore? solar power?).  Presumably the
major priorities of the government is to encourage immigration and
off-world investment, so that Weelkes can "ramp up" to being a major
industrial producer.

An source of adventures might be the increasing rivalry between Weelkes
and Madrigal.  Madrigal can offer high-quality, relatively low-tech
goods and a reputation for delivering on time and under budget.  Weelkes
can offer high-tech (at least, high-tech for this subsector) goods, but
is probably having quality-control and delivery problems.  But they are
number two: they try harder.

Robert Dean writes:
>If you use the Classic Traveller description of class A starports as the  only
>facilities  containing ship yards, and the shipyard capacities  from  Trillion
>Credit  Squadron, you reach the conclusion that there are only four  potential
>commercial shipbuilding sites in the subsector, at Galliard (TL14),  Pardessus
>(TL14),  Forqueray (TL11) and Lassus (TL13).  The total "drydock" capacity  of
>these four sites is 150 tons, 150 tons, 150 tons and 1200 tons  respectively.
>So, only Lassus can build anything bigger than a Scout ship.  It is my  inten-
>tion to stick to Book 2 starship designs for this exercise, which makes things
>a little easier overall, since Jump limits are based on hull size rather  than
>tech level.
I would apply population multipliers (something I did even before Grand
Survey came out for Classic Traveller) to all of the worlds.  Throwing
my trusty d10, for the four shipbuilding worlds, I get multipliers of 5,
9, 1, and 6; this would make the shipyard capacities 750, 1,350, 150,
and 7,200 tons respectively.  If prefab parts from Madrigal are used to
speed construction, it might even be reasonable to assume that shipyards
on these worlds achieve two or three times the average productivity when
working with standard designs (on the other hand, the average wait for
custom designs may be several years before constrution even begins).

This gives us a total of 491,400 ton-weeks of shipyard capacity for
construction.  I will assume (without checking my facts, though) that
Madrigal, Marais, Fantasia, Simpson, and Adriano are negligible in
construction and maintainance capacity (Madrigal probably is not).
The equilibrum equation is X=(U*(N+M))/(4+(T/L)) and the condition is
that X<=(U*N)/(T/L).
U == Shipyard Utilization Factor == 1.00
N == New Ship Construction Capacity == 491,400 ton-weeks
M == Maintainance Capacity == assumed to be zero
T == Ship Construction Time == 9600 ton-weeks for a 200 ton ship
L == Lifespan of an average ship == 100 years if well maintained
Therefore, X is approximately 510 ships, or 102,000 aggregate tons.
This fleet is composed of smaller ships than the average for the
Imperium, and they are older than the average, as well.  Since the
shipbuilding capacity of the Imperium is not evenly distributed, it
seems reasonable that many ships are imported from outside the subsector
to suppliment the local production.  Most ships are probably 200 ton
types, with a small number of 400 and 800 ton ships (a *VERY* small
number, probably; and most of them imported).  Forqueray is probably new
in the starship construction business, and probably produces only two or
three designs (a type S, a purpose-built seeker, and a 150-ton "stretch
seeker" intended as a low-cost general merchanter).

>Assuming  a  reasonable ship life, and a need to perform maintenance  for  two
>weeks  out  of  each year, we find that Lassus can support a  total  fleet  of
>shipping,  military  and civilian, totalling around 19,000  tons.   Ships  are
>either going to come from beyond the subsector, or be fairly scarce,or  both.
>I don't know that this would work, so I have designated Weelkes as a potential
>ship  source.   Weelkes would have a shipyard capacity of  120,000  tons,  and
>would be rated as an industrial planet if its population was 9 instead of 8.
It would be reasonable to assume that Weelkes is trying to become an
Industrial world, and can rapidly eclipse Madrigal as an important world
in the subsector.  Let's rather arbitrarily assign it a population
multiplier of 5.  With a starport of class C, Weelkes is not going to be
able to produce starships for a while, but we can assume that they are
currently in the process of upgrading to class B by installing shipyards
but there are not yet jump-drive fabrication facilities.

Robert S. Dean writes:
> Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> > The one (roughly) ton shipyard capacity per 1000 inhabitants in TCS is
> > naval capacity only. No mention is made anywhere about civilian shipping.
> > My own rule of thumb is two ton of commercial shipping for each ton of
> > warship.
> I don't recall a specific ruling on this, and I always worked under the
> assumption that it was the total capacity, figuring that in war the govern-
> ment would take control of _all_ shipyards for war work, and in peacetime
> they'd contract the maintenance work that overflowed from the Navy shipyards
> out to civilian shipyards, so that there was really very little distinction
> between the two.  But, as I say, that's just my interpetation.  If you look at
> the capacity for a Population 9 world, you tend to wonder what they are doing
> with the surplus...
I don't ever remember a clear ruling on this either, but I have always
assumed that the capacity rules from TCS were total capacity.  Then
again, I have also used the population multipliers in the TCS formula
(which was originally written before there *WERE* population
multipliers), so my calculations average about 5 times the total ship
production capacity as the original TCS rules.  My rationalization is
that the original TCS rules considered only the shipyard capacity
available for military construction, while the results with the
population multipliers produce *TOTAL* capacity.  I freely admit that
this assumption is crude at best, and may be unworkable.  Anybody care
to think up a variant rule for this (there is one percolating in the
back of my mind, but it is not ready to come out yet).

Another data point for trade-and-commerce economics fans: Immediately
prior to the outbreak of WWII, the British Isles imported about 55
million tons annually.  Included in this total was about all of Great
Britian's POL (Petrol/Oil/Lubricants) needs, most of her foodstuffs
nearly all of the ores and raw materials required by her industry, and a
suprising amount of manufactured goods (particularly machine tools).
During the worst part of the Battle of the Atlantic, imports were
reduced to an annulized rate of 30 million tons per year (about half of
this was food).  During the war, the US firm of Kaiser produced
prefabricated ships (Liberty Ships).  Each one displaced about 4000 tons
(that's tons *MASS* folks, empty) and could carry about 7000 tons of
cargo (again, tons *MASS*).  The Liberty ships could make about 12-14
knots, and could be built in as little as 4 days (from prefabricated
components, working round-the-clock). *** The preceeding data from
Keegan's _The Price of Admiraly_; more recommended reading for TML-ers.

In TRAVELLER terms, a liberty ship is about 800 displacement tons
(assuming that the average cargo is about 1 mass ton per cubic meter of
volume) with about 500 displacement tons of cargo (no passengers).
By figuring the average journey to and from resource worlds, one can
figure out the number of ships needed to supply the required level of
imports.

55 million tons annually is about 7860 full loads for the hypothetical
Traveller starship described above.  Assuming that the ship only makes
jump-1 (reasonable, because 62.5% of this ship is devoted to cargo), and
that the average source world is two parsecs away, then we have a
minimum round-trip voyage of 6 weeks per load (two weeks outbound, one
week loading, two weels inbound, and one week to unload; a
minimum-length refuelling stopover is assumed at the intermediate
point).  Each ship makes 8 trips per year, with four weeks for overhaul.
Therefore, the merchant fleet serving this world will have to be about
983 ships with an aggregate tonnage of 786,400 displacement tons.  THe
traffic flow rate will be between 21 and 22 arrivals per day (with a like
number of departures, of course).

Remember - this is to support a population and economy the size of
pre-WWII british isles.  Some Traveller high-population worlds will have
single cities larger than this.

Robert Dean writes:
>Agricola:  Standard  atmosphere water world, with a  native  population  of
>mammalian amphibians, plus a human/dolphin colony.  The natives are balkan-
>ized,  with  the main source of conflict being over islands which  are  re-
>quired for breeding grounds and technology platforms.  Pregnant females and
>young children can't swim, so they need boats or islands.
I like this idea; asingle minor race will add some interest to an
otherwise generally bland subsector.

>Canzona: Settled by even more fanatical religious dissidents from Madrigal,
>who  are  split up into groups that can't agree.   Potential  Amber  travel
>classification.
How about from the same sect that colonized Madrigal (both planets
colonized at the same time from approximately the same population
source, with roughly the same beliefs).  On Madrigal, the religon has
remained homogenous (probably for geopolitical reasons, combined with
the tendancy to isolate dissidents on an island).  On Canzona, the
church has split into many different sects (nations) each one claiming
to be the One True Faith.  Disputes over borders, resources, and
religious questions cause minor wars all the time.  Amber zone
classification, and potential adventure interest.

Robert Dean writes:
> [Somebody else writes and I forgot to save the attribution - sorry]:
> 0806  Brade         C8B7410-7           NI         Y
> > Company world. Law level non-existent. I think any company would
> > maintain dicipline, so I'd interpret that as "Law not enforced
> > outside starport compound" (Starport is owned by company  -  in
> > fact, it IS the company building). So how does the company make
> > money? Independent hunters or collectors goes out into that
> > corrosive atmosphere and collect something valuable (what?). The
> > company has a monoply on buying. They couldn't care less that
> > one hunter/collector kills another for his haul,  they get the
> > stuff in the end, anyway.
>
> OK.  I like this, so it's now "official".  What are they collecting?
> Anybody else got any ideas?

Well, it depends on what the corrosive atmosphere is made out of.  My
suggestion is that the atmosphere contains various and sundry nasty
gasses (cyanide, chlorine, or ammonia come to mind, although some more
interesting organic compounds might be a good idea).  However, a number
of very interesting plants grow here; the raw plant material is
manufactured into drugs, spices, and "recreational pharmecuticals"
(depending of course, on which plant is harvested, and who does the
processing).  The plants extract compounds from the atmosphere
and combine them with trace minerals from their growing region to "build"
the substances of interest.  So far, actually farming the plants has
proven impractical, and synthesizing the compounds is more expensive
than refining them from plant matter (but research continues on both
fronts).

THe best plants probably grow in specialized habitats (for example, one
kind might be semi-aquatic, and grow like lily-pads in shallow pools of
whatever nasty substance passes for water on Brade.

A pharmecutical corporation (SuSAG?) operates the starport and is the
only legal purchaser of the raw Bradeian plants.  Some species are
refined into drugs, while others are sold as spices.  Because of the
nature of SuSAG's monopoly, there are a number of attempts at "Black
Market" harvesting - especially for the illegal drug trade.  Wilderness
landings on Brade are possible, but dangerous (for two reasons; the
planet is dangerous enough to begin with, and SuSAG takes very unkindly
to smugglers).

In addition to the various human threats, some of the animal life-forms
of Brade can be dangerous to the unwary.  Alltogether, the life of a
Bradeian Gatherer is not an easy one.  Because there is no effective law
on Brade save what SuSAG wants to enforce, many of the gatherers are
fugitives from other worlds in the subsector.

Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk> writes:
> Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> > 0105  Fantasia      A99A522-8           NI         Y
> > Large waterworld with either large colony or small independent
> > population. Could be a co-op seaharverster outfit.
> This is another one of the classic Traveller worlds.  Will someone please
> explain to me how a TL 8 world can support a class A starport?  As I
> understand it, a class A starport can, by definition, build and repair
> starships, i.e. jump drives, i.e. must be at least TL 9.  Bases, captive
> worlds or other forms of outside influence might allow some outsider to
> own, run and supply the starport independantly of the planet, but none of
> these apply here.
I usually treat cases like this as meaning that the sustained TL of the
world is 8; however, the starport has (at a minimum) TL-10 facilities
available.  In cases like this it means that either the world is more
advanced in space travel than in most other areas (unlikely), or that
the parts and skills are imported from more advanced worlds.  In many
cases this would be because the world is an important importer or
exporter; in others this would be because it is located astride several
trade routes, and is in a convenient location for serving many
starships.  Other possabilities include a corporate service facility
which uses offworld technology and local (read cheap) labor or
real-estate.

> > 0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
> > Who is paying for the Class B Starport? The tech level is too low
> > to support starships, so someone is importing the technicians and
> > parts to keep it going. The local government?
> The local government, supported by disgustingly high taxes, backed up by
> a law level that prosecutes you if you sneeze the wrong way.
Madrigal is an industrial world; they probably charge the cost of the
port to their customers.  They are the only one in the subsector, and
can probably charge whatever they want for machine tools, processed
chemicals, and milled steel.  So they probably have a strong economy,
and enjoy a substantial trade surplus (and a law level that prosecutes
you if you fail to utter the proper prayer after sneezing).

Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
>You have a point.  OK.  Let's go for adventure potential.  Adriano was a
>normal world with a population of 7 or 8 until a few years ago, when a
>plague so violent and untreatable appeared and killed off the entire
>population, as per your suggestion.  This will now be the single most
>important feature of the entire subsector, as research will show that it
>was a modified Ricercaran disease which _must_ have been deliberately
>spread.  Who would gain by murdering an entire planetary population? A
>mystery, and an overwhelmingly important one that must be solved soon!
>
>(We won't leave this a mystery for ever, since it is my intention to decide
>on all such details in this forum, as part of the GMing exercise originally
>mentioned.)
I like this idea!  This mystery could be the focus of an entire campaign
as long and complex as those presented in "The Traveller Adventure".

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> Rob Dean writes:
[Rules for constructing commercial starships]
> > I don't recall a specific ruling on this,
> Me neither. As I wrote, there's no mention of civilian starships anywhere.
As far as I know, there aren't any anywhere.  We should probably hammer
some out; I think that the shipyard capacity should be based on
population, tech level, trade classification, and perhaps on government
type and/or law level.  The biggest problem is in deciding what level of
interstellar commerce we want the result to reflect; perhaps this can be
reduced to a table of factors.

> >and I always worked under the assumption that it was the total capacity,
> >figuring that in wartime the govern-
> >ment would take control of _all_ shipyards for war work,
> Any government that interfered too much with the merchant marine in wartime
> would run out of essential goods right speedily. Think about the British
> Merchant Marine during WWII.
Exactly.  In wartime, the government would probably supervise production
to make the most out of the available capacity.  Merchant Marine ships
would probably be restricted to a few absolutely standard, well-proven
designs that lend themselves to mass production and pre-fabricated
parts.  Other industries would be pressed into service making these
parts (example: Singer's sewing machine factories produced machinegun
parts during WWII, and many automotive plants were used to produce
aircraft components).  Reserve capacity would be utilized, and efficency
increased, so that additional capacity was available for warship
construction.

Existing TRAVELLER rules (Trillion Credit Squadron and Fifth Frontier
War) do not really provide for any type of economic warfare (in the
sense that it was waged in WWII by Germany's U-boats in attempting to
cut off Britain's imports and starve the country into submission; or
even in the sense conducted by the Allied strategic bombing campaign in
attempting to destroy the enemy's industrial ability to wage war).
Because of this, it is extremely difficult to gauge the level of
interstellar trade, and the effects of different wartime strategies on
trade and planetary economies.  This is probably something we can fix
here on TML; once these questions are answered, it becomes much easier
to talk about piracy, economic warfare, and tax bases for inperial
budgets.

Steve H. writes:
> I don't like the "plague world".  What kind of plague
> is there that TL14 techniology shouldn't
> be able to deal with?  Yes, I've read "Speaker
> for the Dead", but I'm not willing to bet that
> something like the Descolada couldn't be beaten by Imperial technology.
There are probably very few diseases that couldn't be beaten by Imperial
technology.  However, there will still be plague worlds: the question is
will the population be decimated before effective help arrives?  How far
away is the help in relation to the speed of the spread of the disease?
After such a disaster, it may be easier and cheaper to simply interdict
the world than to try and develop and disseminate a cure.

> As to "Ancient sites", I've never bothered to use
> one.  Mostly because everyone I've ever
> played with has been completely turned off by the
> idea of playing archeologist.  And if it's
> not archeology, it's dungeon plunging.
Well, in the past my players have included an anthropologist and an
archaeologist --- you might say they were interested; one of them even
turned what I thought was going to be a simple dungeon crawl into a
full-fledged dig.  Anchient sites *can* be fun, but you've got to think
more in terms of archaeology a la Indiana Jones rather than archaeology
as it is actually practised as a science.  Good examples include FASA's
"Legend of the Sky Raiders" and "Trail of the Sky Raiders", or the
"Visit to Antiquity" found in an early Travellers' Digest.  An anchient
site should probably be somewhere in the subsector; players that are
interested in such things will want it, while those that are not can
just ignore it.

> "University Planets" I don't buy.  Not until someone
> can show me a "University country" on
> Earth.  Talk about overspecialization.  Not
> to mention that the level of available shipping
> already described wouldn't be able to handle the off-planet support required.
Well, while there may not be any purely academic planets in a backwater
like Gamba, there is probably at least one somewhere in the Imperium.
On the other hand, there may be a world well-known for its excellence in
education, that draws the best students from many parsecs around to
study in its institutions.  While there are no "university countries"
here on earth, many students come from abroad to study at US colleges,
and the US has many "university cities" - take Blacksburg VA as an
example.


Oh, on the subject of the original SF origins of GDW's Traveller
concepts, I note that there is a planet Mongo in the Jewell subsector.
Somehow, I sincerely doubt that this name originated at GDW; in fact, I
wonder if it was used with permission?

As a point of fact, I doubt that there are very many things in Traveller
that were not written about in SF literature first.  Marc Miller and GDW
were simply the first to take all of the elements of classic
hard-science SF and assemble them all in a role-playing game.

timothy k istian soholt <xoanon@carina.unm.edu> writes:
A few of my own thoughts on Gamba subsector:
> > 0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
> How about this: the tech was recently upgraded when the surviving
> members of the survey team decided to quit the Service and settle
> on the planet. (Remember that a population code of 0 means less
> than ten people, not no people.)They're cordial enough to trav-
> elers, but they do their best to keep incoming ships to the land-
> ing pad they've laid out near their homes, and they ask visitors
> to get their business over with and leave. The Scouts are, in
Now that's an interesting new explanation for one of these!

> fact, protecting the indigenous population (which doesn't show up
> on the surveys because they doctored the records) from exploi-
> tation -- anyone have any ideas what the natives could have that
> would be significant enough to Imperial interests that they
> would be in mortal danger if the rest of the galaxy found out?
In a case like this, why wouldn't the normal IISS protective
interdiction be better?  Is there some reason why protective
interdiction was not granted, or even asked for?  Are the scouts
themelves exploiting the indegenous population?  I think this part needs
a little more thought, but it has promise ...

> Atmospheric taint would likely be large amounts of water in the
> air.
This counts as a taint?  I've always assumed that a taint was something
which would be extremely unpleaseant at very best, is usually harmful,
and can be fatal at worst.  Then again, I'm in the Washington, DC area,
and we have large amounts of water in the air for most of the summer.

Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk> writes:
> 0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
> Either there is one family living there, or the local population was wiped
> out by something but some of the machinery is still around.  That class E
> starport on a water world of TL 5 makes me wonder if an enterprising team
> of adventurers might be able to pick up an aircraft carrier for free? :-)
> Or, perhaps there are a few people there, survivors of a ship which crash
> landed.  I can just imagine their faces when the survey team said "This is
> a _survey_ mission, not a rescue mission.  But we've noted your presence -
> a rescue team should be along some time soon" - just before the Imperium
> collapsed. :-)
How about one of these two:  Jenkins could belong to a single family
(likely noble, or filthy rich, or both) who maintain a residence on this
otherwise commercially-unexploitable world for pleasure (perhaps
great-grandad, founder of the sector-wide trading line, was an avid
fisherman, and Jenkins is where he put his "fishing lodge").  The
current head of the family is more interested in making money than going
fishing, and visits only very rarely; the only permanent residents being
the caretaker and his family.  Another classic alternative would be a
colony-ship that was bound for a different world misjumped
or crash-landed here.  The few survivors proceeded to do the best they
could, and hope for rescue.  By the time they were discovered, the
remaining colonists had given up on rescue, and had built a life for
themselves on Jenkins; therefore they refused "rescue".  Now the
colonizing agency has a problem: should they support this de-facto
colony on Jenkins or not?  And how would the current residents of
Jenkins feel about a whole horde of new colonists descending on their
little island colony?

CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU (Scott "2g" Kellogg) writes:
> When I think about Class A starports, I have a little trouble
> sometimes.  I tend to envision large international airports:
> Dulles, Atlanta, BWI, LAX, Chicago, Heathrow, Newark etc.  Now
> those to me say 'Class A'.  However, not one of those has anything
> to do with manufacturing capacity.
Well, from the Traveller rules, there is not much "official" difference
between Class A, B, and C ports *EXCEPT* the availability of shipyards
for construction and repair.  By extension, the class A and B ports have
more traffic, as both a cause and an effect of their repair and
construction facilities.

You might be better off thinking of starports the way an 18th- or 19th-
century sea captain might think about seaports.  The best ports (like
Baltimore, Liverpool, Cherbourg, Brest, Boston, and many others) could
supply almost anything needed in the way of provisions, and repairs.
Shipyards where there to construct new ships; drydocks were available
for major repairs, and any number of businesses catered to the maritime
trade.  The second-class ports had no builder's ways or drydocks, but
could do almost anything else.  On the other end of the spectrum, simply
getting fresh water and provisions was an adventure at some ports of
call.

Quantity of shipping does not need to be directly related to the
presence of construction and repair facilities.  I'm quite sure that
there are some class A ports which get less traffic than a class D port
at a busy mining outpost.

> Where are the big ship builders/aircraft manufacturers?  Well, most
> of the US aircraft companies are out on the west coast.  Boeing's
> out there in Washington state, Lockheed's in California, the ship
> builders aren't exactly in the large population ports either.  GE
> Boats are out in Conneticut.  Norfolk is a large place, but it's
> not the HUGE place one thinks of when one say's 'Class A' port.
>
> Point being, that the ship building yards may not always mean there
> is a large port or a large amount of traffic going in and out.
Right.  But the Traveller port classifications measure not the amount of
the traffic, but the facilities available.  Therefore, Lockheed's plant
in California rates as a Class A airport, while Chicago's O'hare rates
as a Class C (or Class B if someone has a fleet maintanance center
there).

On the other hand, especially in Traveller (like in sailing-ship days)
having a maintainance or construction center far from large
concentrations of shipping means unproductive delays.  Imagine a
merchant ship making a run; if the nearest maintainance center is two
jumps off of its route, that will mean *ANOTHER* four weeks of
unproductive time every year; someone who locates a maintainance
facility on the traderoute will certainly get *MUCH* more business.  The
same goes for ship construction.  Therefore, in Traveller, construction
and maintainance facilities will tend to indicate where the
concentrations of shipping are.  But there will be exceptions, and not
every high-traffic world will have a shipyard.  In many cases, one high
population or industrial world will import from and export to nearly
half a dozen resource, agricultural, or market worlds in the surrounding
area.  One or two class A or B starports will service all of this trade,
probably established where the ships tend to concentrate for
astrographic reasons, or where the skills or resources are readily
available (such as a high-tech industrial world).

> So, what do we need for a large ship building yard?  Mainly
> resources.  Those resources are the material to physically make the
> ship, and the technology to make it work.
> The technicians needed can be brought in.
> The parallel is steel plants.  Now, most people would imagine that
> steel mills would be ideally located near large deposits of iron
> ore right?  Wrong!  Steel mills are ideally located near large COAL
> deposits.  The process of making steel requires more coal than it
> does iron ore.  (Pittsburgh?)
I'd argue that the main ingredent is not the resources or the technical
skill; both can be imported.  What is important is a location convenient
to your customer base.  As it usually works out, this typically means
on a resource world, or an industrial world (both popular destinations,
and able to supply some of the needs of a shipyard).

> Ok, now with economics still working that way, Ship yards need to
> be located near large mineral deposits and sufficient technlogy
> back there to build it up.  Technicians can be shipped in.
Large mineral deposits mean lots of cheap ore or processed products,
which means a large volume of trade.  Lots of ships means a good
opportunity for starship maintainance facilities, and even starship
construction yards.  Technicans and even pre-fabricated parts can be
shipped in if the demand warrants the expense.

> Galliard is one of the main ship builders of Gamba.  The system has
> a rich asteroid belt with several drydock asteroids.  The Navy uses
> the TL 14 ship yard (Galli-Yard) to maintain some of their older
> escorts and as a storage facility for the sector's mothball fleet.
> The university of Galliard has a highly accredited naval
> architectural and engineering graduate program.
The name "Galli-Yard" is a little silly, but OK so far.

> The ancient site there is of course highly classified, however,
> rumors indicate that the Galli-Yards, were built over the grounds
> of the site.  This has prompted speculation that the ancient site
> was originally a shipyard, and that the Navy supposedly took
> advantage of the University's excavation/reconstruction of the
> site.  The truth of the matter is unknown, but the University
> students are known to encourage the rumor.  Indeed, they point to
> the presence of the sector's only accredited post graduate naval
> archeology program as evidence of the yard's quality.  The Ancient
> Society of Engineers is a group of naval architecture and
> engineering students which claims to design and maintain ancient
> starships.  (Evidence is however that this is simply a group of
> drunken students)  :-)
> There is also the unexplained date of the founding of the yard:  It
> is on the Imperial registry as the oldest operational shipyard, and
> is dated as being founded -201,007 years Pre-Imperium.
This sounds like an elaborate hoax (or running joke) perpetrated by the
afore-mentioned drunken eingineering students.
"We are, we are, we are the Ancient Engineers
 We can, we can, we can drink forty beers!
 Drink rum, drink rum, drink rum and come along with us,
 'Cause we don't give a damn for any damn man who don't give a damn for us!
    --- Traditioal Galliard Tech student drinking song


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future

------------------------------
BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 397  4707 08-Oct-1992 pihlab@cbr.hhcs  RE: Gamba---> Galli-Yard Shipyards << I
 397  4708 08-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   I'll be away... << for the next week or
 397  4709 08-Oct-1992 Jonathan Bayer   Remove me, PLEASE << I have sent many m
 397  4710 09-Oct-1992 TML Administrat  TML lists updated << Hello TMLers, in t
 397  4712 09-Oct-1992 Steve Higginbot  Economics in Gamba << Wildstar:
 397  4713 10-Oct-1992 X Visser         Get on with it already. << I concurr wi
 397  4711 09-Oct-1992 helm@geology.uc  Starports and Resources (long) << I'm f
 397  4714 10-Oct-1992 CS171308011@UTS  Gamba stuff << Bruce sez:

This is a passively moderated mailing list. All messages sent to the
submission address will be distributed. The biweekly digest is currently
distributed each Wednesday and Sunday at 9:00pm.

Submissions: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca -or- uunet!engrg.uwo.ca!traveller
Administrator: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (James Perkins)

The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 397
Archive-Message-Number: 4707
Date: Thu,  8 Oct 92 13:45:12 +1000
From: pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: RE: Gamba---> Galli-Yard Shipyards


I disagree with some of Scott 2G Kellogg's logic here.

> When I think about Class A starports, I have a little trouble
> sometimes.  I tend to envision large international airports:
> Dulles, Atlanta, BWI, LAX, Chicago, Heathrow, Newark etc.  Now
> those to me say 'Class A'.  However, not one of those has anything
> to do with manufacturing capacity.

They usually have enough facilities to do major repairs but not
enough to build craft although they could bolt together something 90%
complete from spares.

> Where are the big ship builders/aircraft manufacturers?  Well, most
> of the US aircraft companies are out on the west coast.  Boeing's
> out there in Washington state, Lockheed's in California, the ship
> builders aren't exactly in the large population ports either.  GE
> Boats are out in Conneticut.  Norfolk is a large place, but it's
> not the HUGE place one thinks of when one say's 'Class A' port.
>
> Point being, that the ship building yards may not always mean there
> is a large port or a large amount of traffic going in and out.
>
> So, what do we need for a large ship building yard?  Mainly
> resources.  Those resources are the material to physically make the
> ship, and the technology to make it work.

YES. BUT. What you want is highly processed/refined resources.

> The parallel is steel plants.  Now, most people would imagine that
> steel mills would be ideally located near large deposits of iron
> ore right?  Wrong!  Steel mills are ideally located near large COAL
> deposits.  The process of making steel requires more coal than it
> does iron ore.  (Pittsburgh?)

If you take this "association" to extremes you end up with all
computer manufacturers being located near large silicon deposits and
I don't think that is correct.

> Ok, now with economics still working that way, Ship yards need to
> be located near large mineral deposits and sufficient technlogy
> back there to build it up.

WRONG.  You want to locate yourself close to a steel producer and you
just stated that they are located near COAL reserves and not metal
deposits (OR are you just being generic with "mineral" deposits?).

You locate your business/industry as cost effectively as possible.
If you require more coal than oil or minerals then you position
the factories where you can get the items cost effectively.  This is
one of the reasons a lot of Earth companies are relocating to 3rd world
countries high in cheap labour.

Modern society (and future society) is governed by transportation
networks.  If you don't have good trans nets to your country then
you don't get what you need at reasonable prices.  Thats the case with
a lot of the starving 3rd world nations today.  Its not that there isn't
enough food to go around, its just not economical to ship it there.

What are the large aircraft builders close to?  Given the costs and
volume of material they process it is quite practical for them to
be located anywhere that they can get their staff, electronics and metal
alloys at competitive prices.  They don't have to locate next to a
steel works because they would sub-contract out the various components.

> Galliard is one of the main ship builders of Gamba.  The system has
> a rich asteroid belt with several drydock asteroids.

So what your saying is that all the industry for refining these
asteroids into usable alloys is located in the asteroids as well?

I suppose that the facilities to refine the alloys into electronic
components and refrigerators etc is there as well?  This would
depend upon the cost of labour and other costs so it might be more
practical to drop the processed alloys to planetary surface for
secondary processing.

> The ancient site there is of course highly classified, however,
> rumors indicate that the Galli-Yards, were built over the grounds
> of the site.  This has prompted speculation that the ancient site
> was originally a shipyard, and that the Navy supposedly took
> advantage of the University's excavation/reconstruction of the
> site.  The truth of the matter is unknown, but the University
> students are known to encourage the rumor.

The Ancients were probably located here because it was the biggest
piece of flat ground for miles around and they liked playing lawn
bowls 8^}.

> (Evidence is however that this is simply a group of drunken students)

I didn't think engineers came in any other form. 8^}

> Virtually all the population is employed at the Galli-Yards, and at

Then who does the refining of alloys and building of electronic components
etc  or does your definition of a shipyard encompass all anciliary
manufacturing as well.  In effect having a closed environment?


Bruce....            pihlab@hhcs.gov.au


------------------------------

Bundle: 397
Archive-Message-Number: 4708
Date:     Thu, 8 Oct 92 16:23:43 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  I'll be away...

for the next week or so on business.  So, don't expect any comments from me
on the Gamba material until I get back. )-:  Anybody got any adventure
suggestions yet?

Rob


------------------------------

Bundle: 397
Archive-Message-Number: 4709
Subject: Remove me, PLEASE
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 7:55:48 EDT
From: Jonathan Bayer <jbayer@ispi.COM>

I have sent many messages with no effect.

PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME FROM THE TRAVELLER MAILING LIST.

Thank you.


JB
- --
Jonathan Bayer		Intelligent Software Products, Inc.
(908) 248-1853		37 Winthrop Rd.
jbayer@ispi.COM		Edison, NJ   08817

------------------------------

Bundle: 397
Archive-Message-Number: 4710
Subject: TML lists updated
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
From: TML Administrator <traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca>
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 09:41:39 PDT


Hello TMLers, in the last month I have twice managed to lose mail
connectivity from my site and then restore it. Such problems do make it
difficult to use my remote list manager software update the TML
addresses. Nonetheless, you all deserve an apology.

I have just updated the TML mail lists and would like to welcome several
TMLers back after an absence: Steve Owens, Colin Roald, Craig Waylan,
Chuck McKnight, Mark Arendt, and R Morris. I'd also like to welcome
several members at changed addresses that (I hope) are working: Gerry
Williams, metlay, Marc Volovic, Scott Kellogg, Tim Soholt, Bill Smart,
Brandon Cope, Catie Helm, and Pedro Tavares. Lastly, let's all extend a
hearty new member welcome to Erik Yocum, Pablo Ruiz, and Martin Snow.

I also must admit that there seem to be problems with the TML biweekly
and bundle deliveries. I hope to look into these problems in the next
week and restore those listees.

Unburying myself,

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 397
Archive-Message-Number: 4712
Date: 09 Oct 92 22:29:21 EDT
From: Steve Higginbotham <71035.1211@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Economics in Gamba

Wildstar:

>How about a stutterwarp-powered missile (or better yet, a whole bunch of
>them) launched from a conventional ship.  Instead of high explosive,
>have a proximity fuse connected to a sandcaster round.  Have the missile
>home in on the stutterwarp ship, and detonate in its path.  If the ship
>is not too badly damaged by this, then launch a bunch more, and surround
>the ship with sand.  Now that you've gotten the thing to stand still,
>you can fire at it with conventional weapons, or come alongside at your
>lesiure for a boarding action.

Sand won't bother it THAT much.  And if you can get something that close,
then use a nuke instead.  It saves you time and trouble.  Keep in mind
that if you surround the ship with enough sand to keep it stationary
(about as much as the Sahara desert has, for a start), it STILL takes you
hours or days to reach the ship, and he can cruise out of your sand on
normal drive (which all S/W ships have), and bug out.


>0109  Motet         C898735-3           AG         Y
>Obviously an agro world feeding Madrigal, and maybe other parts of the
>subsector as well.  Good destination for traders looking for an unususl
>cargo

Why does ANYONE believe that TL3 worlds can feed a subsector?  TL3 countries
usually have trouble feeding themselves, much less anyone else.  Look
around at the food exporting countries in the real world:  they are all
comparatively high technology (TL6+).


>0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
>The industrial powerhouse of the subsector.  I don't believe that
>commercially important worlds need to be high-tech.  Madrigal is quite
>capable of producing industrial goods that would be useful to worlds
>anywhere from TL-3 to TL-9 (which includes most of the worlds in the
>subsector).  For export to lower-tech worlds, it probably produces heavy
>machinery and mining and agricultural equipment; for high tech worlds,
>Madrigal likely exports machine tools, precision equipment, and some
>consumer goods.  It also is the major source of refined chemicals and
>bulk metals (iron and steel ingots, barstock, plates, pipes and other
>useful materials).  Total production is likely to be more than a
>hundred million tons annually.  The class B starport is maintained
>by and for the convenience of Madrigal's customers, and the cost of imported
>skills and technology is part of the cost of doing business.

How many TL6 machine tools do we import into the USA?  How much precision
equipment?  At TL6, your idea of precision isn't even in the time zone
required for real precision work.  Total production is more than 100,000,000
tons annually?  So where do the exports come from?  The USA does more than
that, and we sure don't have 1,000,000,000 people in the USA!

				Steve



------------------------------

Bundle: 397
Archive-Message-Number: 4713
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 09:02:08 -0700
From: X Visser <rrn@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Get on with it already.

I concurr with Wildstar. We are wasting our time with GDW. They will not make a
set of rules with a consistant enough logic to be truly playable, nor a
background where science is anything but a gimmick. If, for some reason, you
disagree, simply scan their recent `efforts'. T2K2 is a hack at best, and, as
usual, all the effort put into DC is wasted by mating it to a forty-minute rule
system (the forty being all that it would take for an average gamer to invent
by himself).

Instead, why not make a system-independent background? All we'd need is a world
generation base (what I've read of Gamba subsector simply points at the need to
fix the one used), a few guidelines as per the direction it would go. I would
suggest Library Data format, but map-based, or society-based would do as well.

There are lots of game systems that can do Sci-Fi, but none, it seems, with a
decent enough universe to bother doing it in. That, it would seem, is the niche
that needs to be filled. Rules really aren't that hard, especially if you are
willing to be a little flexible. It's the data that's the killer.

- -Hans I

------------------------------

Bundle: 397
Archive-Message-Number: 4711
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1992 20:44:09 PDT
From: helm@geology.ucdavis.edu
Subject: Starports and Resources (long)


I'm finally back on for real!  Yippee!  And a big thank you to
2G Scott for forwarding me TMLs for the last six weeks  :-)
In addition, thanks for getting me back on, James.

In relation to the sector developement discussion, but somewhat
tangential to it, I'd like to address what Scott 2G and Bruce
recently posted.  With regards to natural resources and the siting
of industries that rely on those resources, I have to agree with
Bruce: industries tend to be sited to minimize the largest costs
(which in the old and new world is labor and transportation).

Transportation really is very important.  Pittsburgh became an
industrial center, not because of it's proximity to coal deposits
but because it was (and still is) cheap to ship materials by barge
up the river.  The anthrositic and bituminous coal deposits of
Pennsylvania are distributed throughout that state, but the best
and most productive of those deposits are in the eastern, not western
half of the state.  The steel mills of Allentown and Bethleham are
actually better located than those of Pittsburgh, being close to
both good transportation (by rail and by river) and to the high-grade
anthrositic coal.

The steel mills of Gary, Indiana, are in a similar position.  Being
at the juncture of several railroads and also being right on Lake
Michigan, they could ship both coal from the east and west cheaply
by rail (and still do), and had the advantage of being able to get
Masabi Range taconite iron ore by barge and lake freighter.

Let's look at the fate of Kaiser Steel in California.  Eagle Mountain
is one of the only major high grade iron ore depostis of the western
US, but it's out in the middle of nowhere in the Corona Low Desert,
half way between Palm Springs and the Colorado River.  They actually
mined the ore, processed it, and milled it to steel nearby.  It was
then shipped by rail to LA.  It was expensive compared to the cost
of milling steel in the rust belt, but eastern steel must be shipped.
The overall cost of eastern steel was more expensive when the cost
of transportation was factored in.  For a while, a long time in fact,
Kaiser Steel in California was competitive.  Then, in the 60's and 70's,
the cost of rail transportation put Kaiser Steel out of business.  The
ore deposit of Eagle Mountain is still there, with millions of tons of
reserves left!

There's a place out in the high desert of Nevada on the other side of
the range from Imlay called the Nevada Iron Ore Mine.  It's one of
my favorite rock collecting spots, incidentally.  The deposit is
pure high-grade magnetite - lovely stuff, in a mafic emplacement
and some secondary enrichment of sulfides.  Lots of good rock, including
crystals of olivine, all in one spot.  (Is my rock fetish showing yet?
;-)

The Nevada Iron Ore Mine trucked the ore out of the basin, over the
range, to the rail stop of the Southern Pacific Railroad.  From there,
it was shipped over the Donner Pass and down to the port of Oakland.
When the costs of rail transportation climbed in the late 50's, the
Nevada Iron Ore Mine went out of business.

Let's look briefly at Mercury, a strategic mineral according to the
US Bureau of Mines.  The richest deposits of mercury in North America
are in the Coastal Ranges of California.  During WWII, all of the
Allies' mercury production was from California (well, there was some
from Nevada too, but it was minor).  If you look at where these deposits
are located, though, they are not on any of the major transportation
lines.  In fact, most of them are damn hard to get to (I know, I've
been to most of them).  But the price of mercury during the war made
it economic to mine mercury again in California.  After the war, most
of these deposits were abandoned, because cheap Spanish and Trieste
mercury was back on the market.  The only mercury mines still in
operation in Califonia are in the New Idria District, a place so hard
to get into (four hours drive from San Francisco on a horrible terrible
raod) that I've only been there once (for a rock maniac like me, that's
damn little).  But the deposits in New Idria are so rich, that it's
still economic to mine them DISPITE the cost of transportation.

After much rambling, I think I've managed to make my point that it's
transportation cost that drives the availability of resources.  I think
that regards to the siting of Class A starports with ship building
facilities, in-system transportation nets will develop to deliver
resource materials cheaply.

I'd also like to throw out another concept, and that is the lack OR
the expense of a material is one of the things that drives the
development of new materials technology.  Eastern steel is a good
example of this.  When you drive around the east, one of the things
you notice is that the road infrastructure is based on steel:
overpasses,underpasses, bridges and viaducts have steel superstructures.
Now go to the west coast: one of the first things an easterner will notice
is that concrete is the material used in most of the infrastructure.
Pre-stressed concrete is vastly cheaper to construct when compared to
the cost of eastern steel.  Because of the cost of steel on the west
coast, most all of the advances in concrete engineering (prestressed
structure, in-place pored piles, light-weight high-strength concretes)
were made in California in the 1960's.  An entire specialty of
engineering was developed because steel was too expensive to ship.

So what happens when your belters mine out all the high grade ores
in your asteroid belt, or when the cost of processing lower grade
ores plus transportation costs make your shipyard's materials too
expensive?  I think there are two answers.  First, your shipyard
becomes uncompetitive and is downgraded to being a reapir facility
(because people will go elsewhere to buy their ships).  Second, your
engineers get their collective act together and develop a new materials
technology for constructing ships, one which exploits a previously
unused abundant material that's in-system.

Let's look briefly at the siting of major industries.  They are all
near or at the nexi of transportation nets.  Lockheed gets its materials
by rail from the port of Los Angeles (which is actually in Long Beach).
Boeing gets its materials by ship from the Port of Seattle.  Electric
Boat shipyard in Groton, Connecticut nowadays receives the cylindrical
pieces of submarine hull for the 688 class and the Tridents by
ocean-going barge from the pre-fabrication facility at Quonset Point,
Rhode Island, which in turn receives the raw steel by ocean-going barge
from either Pennsylvania or from the Great Lakes steel mills.  Small
components for the boats come by truck, on interstate 95.  Medium-sized
stuff, like missile hatches and reactor vessels, come by rail (every
little kid in Groton knows what a reator vessel looks like on a flat
bed rail car!  ;-)

The point is that the history
of industrial revolutions is one which driven by transportation systems.
The 19th century industrial centers of the northeast were all connected
by water, either by river, lake, ocean, or canal.  When rail came into
the equation, some industrial centers developed at the nexus of rail
lines and major waterways, like Chicago and St. Louis.  The industrial
centers of the 57th century will develop at the nexi of transportation
nets, both in-system and interstellar.  Regardless of how sectors are
generated, there should be a good reason for the siting of a class A
starport, either because the cost of in-systems materials are cheap, or
because that starport is at the junction of several insterstellar trade
routes.

Just my 2 credits worth.  Y'all can flame me now...   ;->

Catie Helm, just a simple country rock-knocker
helm@geology.ucdavis.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 397
Archive-Message-Number: 4714
Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1992 13:52:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: Gamba stuff

Bruce sez:
I sez:
>So, what do we need for a large ship building yard?  Mainly
>resources.  Those resources are the material to physically make
>the ship, & the technology to make it work.

}YES. BUT. What you want is highly processed/refined resources.

Sure, but what you need to GET those processed/refined resources is
the Raw materials which are minerals and technolgy.

>The parallel is steel plants.  Now, most people would imagine that
>steel mills would be ideally located near large deposits of iron
>ore right?  Wrong!  Steel mills are ideally located near large
>COAL deposits.  The process of making steel requires more coal
>than it does iron ore.  (Pittsburgh?)

}If you take this "association" to extremes you end up with all
}computer manufacturers being located near large silicon deposits
}& I don't think that is correct.

Computers don't really require all that much silicon do they?
Ships however need large quantities of metals.  Those metals had to
come from somewhere.  It's a lot easier to have the metals in
system than it is to haul em in.

>Ok, now with economics still working that way, Ship yards need to
>be located near large mineral deposits & sufficient technlogy
>back there to build it up.

}WRONG.  You want to locate yourself close to a steel producer &
}you just stated that they are located near COAL reserves & not
}metal deposits (OR are you just being generic with "mineral"
}deposits?).

I sincerely doubt that TL 9+ industries will have coal furnaces to
make their alloys.  By 'minerals' I was referring to the raw
materials necessary to build starships.  Other than lanthanum we
don't know for certain what those are.  What's superdense?

}What are the large aircraft builders close to?  Given the costs &
}volume of material they process it is quite practical for them to
}be located anywhere that they can get their staff, electronics &
}metal alloys @ competitive prices.  They don't have to locate next
}to a steel works because they would sub-contract out the various
}components.

Well, I'll tell ya, If I was running a shipping yard, I wouldn't
want to have to subcontract to a company in another SOLAR SYSTEM.

>Galliard is one of the main ship builders of Gamba. The system has
>a rich asteroid belt with several drydock asteroids.

}So what your saying is that all the industry for refining these
}asteroids into usable alloys is located in the asteroids as well?

With a diameter of only 1600 km, Galliard is practically an
asteroid itself.  The mineral extraction is going on all over the
system.  You can do that pretty easy at TL 14.

}I suppose that the facilities to refine the alloys into electronic
}components & refrigerators etc is there as well?  This would
}depend upon the cost of labour & other costs so it might be more
}practical to drop the processed alloys to planetary surface for
}secondary processing.

Not all vessels can land.  Imagine trying to 'land' a Tigress class
dreadnought?  500,000 tons?  :-P  I doubt the hull has any stress
points for landing.  Zero G dockyards are nice.  Say the upstation
class A starport is one or more of these drydocks.

>Virtually all the population is employed @ the Galli-Yards

}Then who does the refining of alloys & building of electronic
}components etc or does your definition of a shipyard encompass
}all anciliary manufacturing as well.  In effect having a closed
}environment?

Yep.  The materials, refining etc etc are subdivisions of
Galli-Yards.

Wildstar sez:
}For me, the Rebellion was not even worth playing in.  We used the
}MT rules on several occasions, & the Rebellion background once.

You actually used the rebellion?  HEY!  Look!  Somebody actually USED
MegaTraveller!  :-)      (Note:  The 4.5th War is in 1102.)

}Second, I assume that all Class-A starports are effectively @ TL-10
}and Class-B starports are effectively TL-9 (even if the world TL is
}lower; this simply means that spare parts & technical crews are
}imported from off-world).

I disagree.

}(Scott "2g" Kellogg) writes:
>When I think about Class A starports, I have a little trouble
>sometimes.  I tend to envision large international airports:
>Dulles, Atlanta, BWI, LAX, Chicago, Heathrow, Newark etc.  Now
>those to me say 'Class A'.  However, not one of those has anything
>to do with manufacturing capacity.

}Well, from the Traveller rules, there is not much "official" difference
}between Class A, B, & C ports *EXCEPT* the availability of shipyards
}for construction & repair.  By extension, the class A & B ports have
}more traffic, as both a cause & an effect of their repair and
}construction facilities.


Class C ports don't even have refined fuel available.

>Point being, that the ship building yards may not always mean there
>is a large port or a large amount of traffic going in & out.

}Right.  But the Traveller port classifications measure not the amount of
}the traffic, but the facilities available.  Therefore, Lockheed's plant
}in California rates as a Class A airport, while Chicago's O'hare rates
}as a Class C (or Class B if someone has a fleet maintanance center
}there).

Chicago's O'Hare is class C?  No bloody way!  Class C means unrefined
fuel and 'reasonable' repair facilities.  No overhauls, no 100 hr
inspections.  To me, that means that the port is more like your local
airstrip.  (Say College Park airstrip for the DC & MD crowd)
Small private planes VERY small commercial stuff.  Class D is more
like a grass strip airport, with MAYBE a hanger.   Class E is a
farmer's field.

}Therefore, in Traveller, construction
}and maintainance facilities will tend to indicate where the
}concentrations of shipping are.

But remember, that the concentrations of shipping will tend to be where
the technology and industry are, which is where the raw materials are.
Thus shipyards attract shipping, and shipping attracts shipyard building.

World A has lots of natural resources readily adaptable for ship
building.
People come in to develop those resources.  The traffic starts
coming in.
Ship building starts.  Now ship traffic starts POURING in.

>Ok, now with economics still working that way, Ship yards need to
>be located near large mineral deposits & sufficient technlogy
>back there to build it up.  Technicians can be shipped in.

}Large mineral deposits mean lots of cheap ore or processed products,
}which means a large volume of trade.  Lots of ships means a good
}opportunity for starship maintainance facilities, & even starship
}construction yards.  Technicans & even pre-fabricated parts can be
}shipped in if the demand warrants the expense.

Yeah, so maybe not all the mineral resources go to making starships.
The main exports (other than ships) would be refined materials.

}The name "Galli-Yard" is a little silly, but OK so far.

You mean that with all the OTHER silly musical names in Gamba sector
I can't add one more?  Why don't we have a balkanized planet named
Guitar?  With the nations Fender, Gibson, and Danelectro?  Maybe a
world named Xpander?  Metlay?  :-)

>The Ancient
>Society of Engineers is a group of naval architecture and
>engineering students which claims to design & maintain ancient
>starships.  (Evidence is however that this is simply a group of
>drunken students)  :-)

}"We are, we are, we are the Ancient Engineers
} We can, we can, we can drink forty beers!
} Drink rum, drink rum, drink rum & come along with us,
} 'Cause we don't give a damn for any damn man who don't give a damn for us!
}    --- Traditioal Galliard Tech student drinking song

:-)  Now yer gettin' the idea!

}0109     Motet     C898735-3      AG   Y
}Obviously an agro world feeding Madrigal, & maybe other parts of the
}subsector as well.  Good destination for traders looking for an unususl
}cargo

How about the different nations of Motet are under the influence of
different food corporations on Madrigal?  TL 6 mercs running around
cowing the TL 3 locals with their godlike machinery...

}0110     MADRIGAL  B7989DE-6 S    IND  Y

}0408  Forqueray    A353546-B N    NI, P     Y
}The primary Imperial Navy base of the area;
}The Naval facilities are probably on a par with
}usual Imperial Navy practice: TL-14 or TL-15, including shipyards, a
}naval medical center, & probably a mothball fleet orbiting somewhere
}in the system.

I prefer Galliard as the main Naval base.  The Ancient site to
watch over, would be the reason for their initial presence, and
the higher TL of Galliard would be far more attractive to the Navy.
Also, having two mothball fleets in a subsector is a bit much.

}Civillian contractors will happily do work for private
}citizens, too (provided such work does not interfere with their Navy
}commitments); therefore this world probably has an effectively TL-15
}capability for starship construction & repair (but you will probably
}pay several times the normal rate for the work).

That is what I was trying to create for Galliard.

}0803     Weelkes   C112888-A S         NA   Y
}An source of adventures might be the increasing rivalry between Weelkes
}and Madrigal.  Madrigal can offer high-quality, relatively low-tech
}goods & a reputation for delivering on time & under budget.  Weelkes
}can offer high-tech (at least, high-tech for this subsector) goods, but
}is probably having quality-control & delivery problems.  But they are
}number two: they try harder.

Sounds like a good idea!

Traveller's News Service
Weelkes/Gamba  ?112888-A S         132-1104

A band of terrorists have destroyed the Weelkes starport shipyards when
they hijacked the bulk carrier Dulcet Melody.  The Dulcet Melody's
transponder suddenly switched to 7600 shortly after liftoff indicating
a hijack attempt.  When the tower attempted to contact the Dulcet Melody,
they heard gunshots over the radio.  Shortly afterward, the 10,000 ton
bulk carrier crashed in the Weelkes shipyard facility.  All traffic
control was lost at that moment, however there was the unconfirmed
tracking by the scoutship Cello of the Dulcet Melody's ship's boat
departing prior to the crash.
     There have been acusations by Weelkes government officials that
the terrorists were backed by Madrigal.  Madrigal has denied any
involvement but said that ill luck is the price to be paid by unbelievers
of the one true faith.  :-)

}>>0105   Fantasia  A99A522-8      NI   Y
}>>Large waterworld with either large colony or small independent
}>>population. Could be a co-op seaharverster outfit.
}>This is another one of the classic Traveller worlds.  Will someone please
}>explain to me how a TL 8 world can support a class A starport?

How about TL 8 spacecraft with TL 9 jumpdrives?
Personally, I *LIKE* the stuff with low tech spacecraft.  One of my
favorite (unused) ideas was a TL 8 starship.  A company had gotten a
hold of the original Hiver jump drive plans.  As such, they built a
fleet of starships at TL 8.  Problem was that the Jump drives often
melted down.  Thus ships had to have several backup drives.  And
remember, we're talking book 2 rules of construction here.  So, it
wouldn't be too hard.

}>>0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
}The industrial powerhouse of the subsector.
}Madrigal may even be able to fabricate starship hulls, hull components,
}drive mounts, weapons systems, turrets, & dozens of other fittings for
}spacecraft which can be fabricated with their technology.

Yeah, possibly, but who would want a bunch of TL 6 Steel hulls for
spacecraft?  If they are very late TL 6 they might be able to manage
a Gemini or Mercury type space capsule, or at BEST an X-20 Dynasoar.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the Roughneck class spacecraft.

}So they probably have a strong economy,
}and enjoy a substantial trade surplus (and a law level that prosecutes
}you if you fail to utter the proper prayer after sneezing).

And unbelievers are seen as less than fully human?  That always makes
for fun...  :-)

}>Atmospheric taint would likely be large amounts of water in the
}>air.
}This counts as a taint?  I've always assumed that a taint was something
}which would be extremely unpleaseant @ very best, is usually harmful,
}and can be fatal @ worst.  Then again, I'm in the Washington, DC area,
}and we have large amounts of water in the air for most of the summer.

I worked in DC for nearly 2 years.  I count the atmosphere outside DC's
Naval Research Laboratory as 'Tainted'.  We were downwind of the Blue
Plains Sewage Treatment Facility.  :-P

Scott 2G Kellogg^Z

------------------------------

End of TML Biweekly
******************
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 398  4716 10-Oct-1992 Steve Higginbot  Challenge 65 and Ancient assassins... <
 398  4717 11-Oct-1992 metlay           Re: Doing it ourselves (and Gamba) << >
 398  4715 10-Oct-1992 CS171308011@UTS  The 4.5th Frontier War (Chap 5 Part 4)

------------------------------

Bundle: 398
Archive-Message-Number: 4716
Date: 10 Oct 92 14:59:14 EDT
From: Steve Higginbotham <71035.1211@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Challenge 65 and Ancient assassins...

I just got Challenge 65.

Reading "Deadly Artifact" gave me the sneaking feeling that I had seen this
story in a movie somewhere.  A cross between Terminator II and Alien.
C'mon, you Challenge guys.  Didn't you do the "Ancient Assassin" number
last time you did one of these Horror issues?

I also notice that they added in a Dyson Sphere into the Imperium.  Bad
move.  They describe it as "several sectors away".  If the ship had been
drifting for 3500 years, and covered 90 parsecs (less than three secotrs),
then it was going 0.084c.  Which is 29+ days at 1G.  Nice number, but the
PCs' merchant ship sure isn't going to match courses at that speed.  So the
Dyson sphere is close by.  This should be the most significant event in
human history here - the discovery of a reasonably intact Ancient WORLD.
Well, actually, a few million worlds all in one box.  But still catastrophic
to a campaign.  Can you say "TL25 artifacts by the billions"?  Sure you
can.

                         ---Steve


------------------------------

Bundle: 398
Archive-Message-Number: 4717
From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Subject: Re: Doing it ourselves (and Gamba)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 13:38:22 PDT


>You mean that with all the OTHER silly musical names in Gamba sector
>I can't add one more?  Why don't we have a balkanized planet named
>Guitar?  With the nations Fender, Gibson, and Danelectro?  Maybe a
>world named Xpander?  Metlay?  :-)

Make fun of me at your peril, sonny boy. Make fun of my Xpander and
you've had it. |-> Besides, following your Guitar model, that world
would be named Oberheim. Which has a nice ring to it, but....

My two cents' worth on the "let's do it ourselves" idea is simple:
I don't think it can be done. Witness TDR.

People have too many divergent opinions and are too willing to argue
down into the level of the trivial without agreeing on generalities to
ever produce an alternative to what's published by GDW. People are on
this group because they love to talk and to argue, more so than to
listen.  Some people believe that all we need is a new scenario in
which to run our Traveller campaigns. Others believe that the rules
need to be overhauled. Everyone is so fond of pushing their knowledge
of specific social or physical sciences that no idea can get off the
ground without getting shot full of holes. The end result is that a
lot of noise gets made and a lot of ground gets churned up, but no
one actually GETS anywhere. (Kind of like a tractor pull....) You
can't write an RPG by committee. Marc Miller had a lot of holes in
his background, but he got Traveller up and going because he didn't
have to argue with anyone. As long as you have a few dedicated
writers, a lot of scathing but unconstructive critics, and a mass of
lazy jackasses howling for changes they're unwilling to work for,
you shouldn't expect a miracle.

I will state my opinion for the record, and then bow out of this
discussion for good. We should keep the existing rules we're used to
using-- for some, that'll be Classic Trav, for others MT, for still
others homebrew variants (TDR being only one of many), for others TNE
when it comes out (ah, the need to be current), and for still others
completely different rules systems (I know of people running the
Imperium universe in GURPS, Space Opera, and even AD&D). We could
then, as an intellectual enterprise, write the equivalent of a GURPS
sourcebook, based on the simple premise that Strephon never died. But
I predict that this won't get any farther than an argument over
whether the first new historical item should be the declaration of a
new Emperor in Ilelish (assuming Dulinor tried and failed) or
something else (assuming he never tried).

People will accuse me of cynicism and of being a "wet blanket." Well,
maybe. But everyone seems to be in the habit of getting all fired up
about these grand designs and then suffering major letdowns when they
go flat; I think we should enjoy doing things on a small scale, like
Gamba, and enjoy the victories of which we ARE capable. I believe that
if a Strephon-never-died book for GDW is ever going to get written and
published successfully, it'll be done by one person with one vision.

- --
metlay            | and she's a master of return hitting
atomic city       | giving rhythm to her posts
                  | so you read her and think hey it sounds good
metlay@netcom.com | and wish her posts had a soundtrack too    (f. ercolessi)

------------------------------

Bundle: 398
Archive-Message-Number: 4715
Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1992 13:52:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: The 4.5th Frontier War (Chap 5 Part 4)

Copyright (92) All rights reserved.  So there!

                      THE 4.5TH COLUMNISTS
                               by
                          Scott Kellogg
                             - XL -
     Tuerz was out on point again, the group strung out along the
corridor to the robotics lab.
     Suddenly, klaxun began to blare.  "Battle stations!  Battle
stations!  All hands to battle stations!  This is no drill!
Repeat, this is no drill!  Unidentified vessels approaching.
     "Gun crews man your stations.  Crews man your fighters.  Stand
by for possible firing orders."
     Jietlshaiepr clenched her fist.  "Miakr?  You still linked in
the computer?"
     Miakr checked the stolen hand computer.  "Hold on...  Looks
like six ships... two one thousand tonners... two eight hundred
tonners...  they're running ID...  Continent class carriers, two
Broadsword class cruisers...  The other two look like scouts...
Yeah...  No transponders running...  Their heading right into the
particle accelerators...  Who the Viep..."
     Shtam frowned.  "The Domain of Alentzar doesn't have
Continents or Broadswords.  They're Imperial designs:  tech
twelve."
     "Then who..."
     Jietlshaiepr drew a sharp breath, "League of Suns ships...
It's gotta be..."
     Niedrsha and Jiet caught each other's eye.  "Lieutenant Jones
and Ensign Smith."
     Miakr shook his head.  "Not for long.  These guys will blow
them out of the sky."
     "What?"
     "These guys got some damn good sensors...  I doubt tech twelve
stuff can get through their countermeasures.  They're gonna get
wiped if they keep coming on the way they are..."
     "Can you patch into commo?"
     Miakr thought for a second.  "No.  The account I'm in has no
authorization for communications."
     Kfoks pushed the computer down and growled.  "With a Tilly, we
won't need authorization.  Let's go."
                             - XLI -
     A figure in combat armor with a gauss gun stood motionless
outside the lab.  Tuerz and Kfoks listened carefully from around
the junction of a T in the corridor.
     "Another robot?" asked Kfoks.
     Tuerz didn't look back, "Probably."
     "Remember, the brain is in the lower abdomen." Kfoks checked
the gauss rifle, lighting the laser designator.
     Tuerz eyed the deadly noisemaker "What the Grrshak are you
going to do with that?"
     "Cover you."
     "Grah, well don't.  You fire that thing and they'll all know
where we are."
     Tuerz caressed his laser pistol and crouched down close to the
floor.  Never fire from where they expect...
     Like quicksilver, Tuerz flowed around the corner and squeezed
off three rapid shots.  The acrid smell of vaporized metal filled
the corridor as metal plates from the armor fell with a clatter.
     Tuerz finger tensed on the trigger as he assessed damage to
his target.
     The armored figure brought its gauss rifle half way up before
the servos froze up.  For a moment it swayed and then toppled,
crashing to the floor in a two hundred and fifty kilo crunch that
echoed down the corridor.
     In a flash, Tuerz was down the hall.  He flew to the side of
the door and waited as Kfoks ran to the other side.
     Kfoks head swiveled.  He grabbed the gauss rifle from the
corpse and threw it down the corridor to Kaezorr.  She and Niedrsha
covered the rear.
     Kfoks hand went to the door switch, "You hit high.  I'll hit
low.  GO!"
     The door slid open and Kfoks dove through firing.  Six figures
turned and two dove for cover.  Combat environment suits came
forward.  Kfoks gauss rifle volleyed and thundered.
     Tuerz fired from around the door.  His right hand shone X-rays
while his left hand jumped with the recoil of teflon coated
caseless.
     The figures in armor were unarmed.  One grabbed a crowbar and
came after Kfoks.  A burst of gauss needles took the arm with the
crowbar off at the elbow.  It kept coming.
     Tuerz flicked his laser over the robots head.  It burst into
flame as liquid hydrogen fuel spilled and then exploded.
     The burning robot was smashed to the floor by the blast.
Flaming wreckage flew about the room narrowly missing Kfoks.
Blazing, boiling liquid hydrogen flowed across the floor.  A fire
alarm sounded.
     Suddenly, the door to the room began to close.  Still firing,
Tuerz dove through.  The robots continued forward.
     Kfoks slammed a heavy burst into the lower chest of one of his
attackers.  The needles narrowly missed the brain but disabled the
transmission.  It fell, but still crawled toward him.
     Smoke and fog began to fill the room as the fire control
system began spewing carbon dioxide.
     Tuerz concentrated his firepower on his next target.  The
laser swept across its face to blind it while he sought out it's
brain with armor piercing slugs.  It fell with a crash.
     Kfoks chewed a robots brain to bits as he stitched gauss
needles through it's kevlar cloth.
     The fifth robot grabbed a crate to hurl it at Kfoks.
     Tuerz shot its feet out from under it.
     A bark from Kfoks rifle sent the last robots head off into a
corner leaking flame.  It wandered around trying to find its
target.
     The downed robot began the slow process of picking itself up
when Tuerz sent a single slug through its back.  It froze.  The
crawling robot was dispatched equally easily as the headless robot
careened around the room blind and deaf in the rising fog the
automatic fire extinguishers.
     The flames of the hydrogen fuel flicked low as the oxygen in
the room was displaced.
     Tuerz turned for the door and punched the door release.  The
door didn't budge.  "Door's locked!"
     Kfoks felt his breath growing short.  "Grab a tilly!"
     The Tillys stood on a large grav pallet along with Vole and
the other robots.
     Tuerz pounded on the door and howled.
     Gasping for breath, Kfoks trotted across the room and slung
his rifle onto his Tilly's arm.  With his head swimming he climbed
in and hit the hatch close.  The plates of armor swung into
position and closed him in.  A moment later, fresh air began
pumping in.  The systems came slowly on line and he dropped off the
pallet and clumped over to the door.
     Tuerz lay slumped on the floor choking and gasping for breath.
     Quickly, Kfoks put the arm of the Tilly through the door and
proceeded to rip it from the wall.  He gently picked up his
murderous friend from the floor and carried him into the corridor.
Free of the smoke and back in the air, Tuerz took gulping breaths
of the recycled air of Zylath.
     Seeing Tuerz slowly recovering, Kfoks headed back into the
lab.  Carefully, he activated the two remaining Tillys and slaved
their control to his own.  Soon the three of them managed to carry
the nearly 400 kilos of deactivated Vole out into the air of the
corridor.
     Kfoks checked over the weapons status of the battle suit.
Gauss rifle... RAM grenade launcher... fusion gun...  Weapon
systems reported themselves in, all green.  Kfoks tail waved in its
armored confinement.  Now the odds were just a little more even...
     He went back into the lab to retrieve the PPO2 warbots.
			- XLII -
     Aboard the Neuevo Australia, the sensor officer called out.
"Captain Stuart, we've got a message comin' in from the surface
fer the Lieutenant Jones...  Oh wait...  We're losing it...  It's
gone.  Captain, it was a warning.
     "Call him to the bridge.  And Ensign Smith as well."  Stuart
rolled his eyes at the brilliance of Naval Intelligence with it's
operatives.  This was Supposed to be a Covert mission!
     A moment later, the two intelligence officers came onto the
bridge.
     "Mr. Ramsey, replay that message you picked up."
     "Aye, sir."
     A screech of static played out and then "Attention
starships.  This is Taek Kfoks.  If you've got Lieutenant Jones
up there, we've found your target for you.  You're headed into a
trap.  Theirsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss..."
     "Lost the signal at that point.  Could be jamming.  The
signal was awfully low."
     "Friends of yours, Mr. Jones?" asked the Captain.
     "Not really sir, but if it is 'o he sez, they're not
enemies."
     "Recommendations?"
     "Can you locate the source o' the jamming?"
     "Ah think so, sir."
     Smith and Jones exchanged glances, "Then hit it.  We know
thure's a pirate base in this system, we just dun't know whare."
     "Thot's an act of war!" objected Ramsey.
     "We are *already* at war with these pirates." observed
Smith.  And if there is a military installation down thare it's
in violation of treaty."
     "Very well... Gunnery officer, prepare to fire.  Flight
crews prepare for launch.  Signal the New Zealand to prepare to
launch fighters.  I want the marines on Battleaxe and Machete
ready to drop.  Have the scouts Burke and the Shaw maintain high
guard position."
     "Jones, you'd better be right."
                            - XLIII -
     The Tilly lurched silently over the vacuum plain of Zylath.
The G-Carrier was closing in on it's position.  The armored
figure dove behind a rock escarpment as the range narrowed.  An
eerie red light suddenly lit the rock melting away sections of it
as the laser burned through.
     The Tilly dodged around the other side of the rock and
sprayed fusing plasma into it's opponent.  The plasma flared
silently lighting up the shadows of the grey dusty rocks.  It
drilled a hole through the bottom of the G-Carrier and ripped a
section of the roof off from the inside.
     Miraculously, it stayed aloft with its hull glowing red and
other spots dripping molten superdense.  Slowly, it began to
climb and the laser turned to bear on the concealed figure.  A
second bolt of plasma streaked out to lick the underside of the
startled G-Carrier.  The plasma nosed through the hull in search
of something interesting.  It spattered against the fusion plant
ripping open the containment vessel and loosing the plasma
within.  Twenty six megawatts of hydrogen plasma streamed out
into the crew compartment of the G-Carrier.
     The G-Carrier's ascent slowed as the power and direction
ceased their input to the grav modules.  It flew in a classic
newtonian parabolic arc in the vacuum and low gravity of Zylath.
It rose slowly and gracefully as it silently tumbled over and
then began a slow drop to the surface.
     It rotated slowly upside down as it reached lazily for the
ground.  The remnants of the roof hit first and crumbled under
the weight of the hundred ton grav vehicle.  It silently buried
itself in the soft gray dust.
                            - XLIV -
     Five Swordfish and five Swordfish II's nosed away from the
Neuevo Australia and formed up with the two squadrons of the New
Zealand around the cutters from the Battleaxe and Machete.  The
patrol cruiser scanned the surface for the source of the jamming.
It seemed to be coming from a large number of sources spread over
the surface of the planet frustrating attempts to just lock on
one source hostile electronic countermeasures.
     Ramsey pointed to the captain's holotank, "Sir!  Picking up
a large neutrino source deep below the planet's surface...  Looks
like a big plant powering up."
     Stewart frowned.  "Helm, evasive maneuver sequence juliet.
Weapons officer, sand casters free.  Attention all ships, begin
evasive maneuvers, defensive systems free.  Redirect laser
systems power to engines."
     Ramsey continued, "Could be something big...  five hundred
megawatts and rising...  One gigawatt and rising...  Five
gigawatts and still rising...
     Stewart growled.  "Flight leaders, begin EMS-Jamming.  Get
those marines down."
     The EMS-Jammers of the fighters screamed up and down the
spectrum to fend off any active radar systems.  But the passive
sensors of the pirates were not the least disturbed.
     "Ten gigawatts and still rising...  Fifteen gigawatts...
Holding steady at fifteen gigawatts."
     A stream of neutral particles came screaming at the Neuevo
Australia.  It licked away at her stern and etched away at the
engines.  The radiation leaked through the hull and began
blasting away at her sand caster batteries.
     "Damage report!" called Stewart, "Mr. Ramsey, did we get a
lock on that firing station?"
     "Umm... No sir!  The rad sensors got swamped:  particle
accelerator.  Scanning for it..."
     "Damage to maneuver drive!  Acceleration down to 3G's...
sand caster battery two is out of action!"
     Stewart's jaw set in anger, "Damage control procedures.
Engineering get those drives back up."
     "Sir!  We're picking up some sort of a fire fight on the
surface.  Lasers and a fusion gun."  Ramsey flicked the sensor
display to a closeup of the surface of Zylath.  Briefly he
replayed the little fireworks display between the Tilly and the
G-Carrier.
     Stewart frowned "Well, someone is fighting down there... god
knows who's side they're on."
     Lt. Jones frowned at the holodisplay.  "Sir, I b'lieve that
th' armored figger down there's... *not* our enemy.  It's 'im who
signaled us."
     "Mister Jones, do you have any idea *who* the enemy is?"
     "Sir," called Ramsey, "Picking up two small craft now.  Ten
ton range...  Look to be fighters.  I make them out to be
Shtelfires.  Closing in on the fire fight we picked up..."
                             - VL -
     Kfoks lumbered back toward the dome.  The G-Carrier was
finished, he didn't care to stick around to find out what would
follow it.  Suddenly, the threat warning alarm went off in his
ears.  Instantly, he dropped to the ground and scanned for the
danger.
     Several kilometers away, heavy lasers were melting the
ground.  The even at that distance, three gigawatts of visible
wavelength laser speckle is a bright and deadly eyesore.  The
lasers slashed about as though seeking a target.  They were
rapidly approaching his position.
     A voice sounded in his helmet breaking through the jamming,
"Vampire!  Vampire!  Vampire!"
     Suddenly, there was a series of tiny flashes up in the sky
as the lasers found a small flying target.
                             - IVL -
     "Missiles intercepted, Sir."  called Ramsey.  "Kangaroo
squadron is closing on the Shtels."
     Jones studied the Holodisplay.  "Did ye get through to 'im
on the radio?"
     "Don't know, Sir.  His transmitter must not be as strong as
ours.  He might be able to read us, but we'll never hear him over
the jamming."
     "But we can still communicate..."  Jones keyed the
transmitter.  "Kfoks?  This is Jones.  If you can't signal us by
radio, les see a blast from that fusion gun of yers..."
     Ramsey interrupted, "Sir!  New Zealand reports a hit on
their maneuver drive!"
     "Did they get a lock on the particle accelerator?"
     "Negative, sir it's too well collimated."
     "Anything on the densitometer?"
     "Still chewing on it sir."
     Stewart turned on Jones and Smith.  "If your 'not enemy'
down there doesn't give us the intelligence we need we're going
to have to pull it out of here.  Fast."

     Kfoks didn't know Morse, but it took a few microseconds for
the Neuevo Australia's computer to find a translation program for
Gdekgveg as Kfoks hammered away with the Tilly's laser welder.
     "Whare in hell is that gun?" demanded Jones.
     -B-A-S-E-L-O-C-A-T-I-O-N-O-L-D-F-I-G-H-T-E-R-B-A-S-E-U-N-E-
R-G-R-O-U-N-D-S-T-O-P-P-A-R-T-I-C-L-E-A-C-C-E-L-E-R-A-T-O-R-S-T-
O-P-
     Smith turned to Ramsey, "Concentrate sensor scans on the ol'
fighter base.  Mayn't be as dead as reports say."
     "Aye, Ma'am...  Hold on just a sec...  Getting something...
GOT IT!  Target located, data passing on the bus to fire
control."
     Captain Stewart grinned for the first time since they exited
jump.  "Commence firing on that target.  Pass data link to the
task force."
     Three gigawatts of laser energy began licking away at the
shore batteries.
     "Permission to load nuclear rounds sir?"
     "Mr. Ramsey, how close is our forward observer?"
     "Too close, Captain.  He's less than a kilometer away."
     "Belay nuclear rounds."
     As the lasers picked away at the uncovered particle
accelerator, Shtelfires began swarming out like angry wasps from
a flaming nest.  The Swordfish leapt to engage.
     "Looks like twenty Shtels rising to engage our fighters."
     "Then it's even odds.  Maintain laser fire on the shore
batteries until you're certain they're out of action.  Missile
batteries commence targeting enemy fighters."
                            - IIIL -
     The two robots caught them off guard.  With a staccato bark,
they opened up with ACR's as the Rackan rounded the corner in the
Tilly.  Sabots pounded on the heavy armor of the Tilly ringing it
like a bell beaten by a burning spastic.
     "AMBUSH!" shouted Niedrsha.
     Rackan reacted instantly.  A long burst of gauss needles
rang out adding to the din.  The first robot shook wildly under
the impacts while the second turned to run.  The first caught
three needles in its brain and froze like a statue before
toppling to the ground.
     Tuerz took off after the fleeing robot.  He turned the
corner and caught sight of it.  With a quick shot he grazed its
fuel tank.  Liquid hydrogen spewed from the tank sheathing the
robot in flame.
     It continued running.
     Tuerz sensitive ears picked up the sound of approaching
feet...  Many approaching feet.  He skidded to a stop and
backtracked to the group.  Miakr was puzzling over the ACR when
he found them.  "More coming."
     Jietlshaiepr nodded, "Let's move people.  Miakr, send the
PPO2's to fight rearguard. Tuerz, Vole on point.  Kaezorr, Rackan
cover the rear.  Move *Fast*!"
     Tuerz ran by Miakr and flicked the safety on the ACR off.
He sneered at the longarm.  "Clumsy weapon.  No style.  No grace.
Point it and shoot it."
                             - IIL -
     The PPO2's closed in on the sound of approaching feet.  The
robots took position at the intersection of two corridors and
waited for the approach.  Silently, they hung suspended out of
sight as their targets entered the corridor shooting gallery.
     On a quick burst radio signal, the fire team uncovered
itself to open fire.  One warbot exposed itself fully while the
others remained under cover taking firing instructions from the
first.
     Two of the targets were cut down by laser fire before they
could respond.  Four millimeter sabots stitched tiny holes in the
light superdense armor of the exposed PPO2.
     The PPO2's continued to methodically cut down their targets
managing to drop three more before the exposed PPO2 took a hit in
the brain that dropped it to the floor with a loud two hundred
eighty nine kilogram crash.
     A second PPO2 rotated to expose itself to the withering fire
from the targets.
     One of the targets was hit in the fuel tank.  Liquid
hydrogen leaked for a millisecond before it touched on the molten
metal of the robot converting the fuel tank into a flame thrower.
The jet of the newly formed hydrogen torch cut into the robot's
fuel cell which instantly exploded.
     Four of the PPO2's targets were flattened by the blast and
shrapnel took the arm off of the exposed warbot.
     New orders came in on the PPO2's command circuit:  "Withdraw
and lead the targets off."
     The PPO2's moved down the side corridor continuing to draw
fire from their targets.

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 399  4718 12-Oct-1992                  Re: TML nightly: Msgs 4706-4706 V45#20

------------------------------

Bundle: 399
Archive-Message-Number: 4718
Date: 	Mon, 12 Oct 1992 09:08:00 -0400
From: <PHB100@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 4706-4706 V45#20

>TML nightly     Thu Oct  8 20:30:05 EDT 1992    Volume 45 : Issue 20
>
>Archive-Message-Number: 4706
>From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
>Subject: Long Message from Wildstar
>
>I've been off in jumpspace for the last week or so, but now I am getting
>around to responding to some of the recent threads here on TML.
>
>About the "Virus" and Challenge 64:
>
 ...
>
>I find it extremely difficult to believe that the question "What if
>someone discovered intelligent computer chips?" has one and only one
>answer: "People would build them into walkie-talkies and forget their
>very existance."  What about the issue of "all sentient life-forms are
>protected citizens of the Imperium".  These sophont computer chips are
>naturally-occurring, evolved creatures; definitely life-forms!  Is this
>a major form of slavery within interstellar society, or are the Cymbiots
>paid employees of the ship owner, free to quit at any time?  If they are
>de-facto slaves, how do they feel about it?  They are sentient creatures
>capable of forming their own opinions, aren't they?

Maybe they _are_ treated as slaves.  Perhaps *THIS* is the true nature
and source of the virus...the Cymbiots are taking revenge and freeing
themselves from an oppressive slavery.

 ...
>
>About Stutterwarp, Steve H. writes:
>> > Dan:
>> >if one was to fire a sandcaster in the path of a stuterwarp ship.
>> >When It went to materialize in the cloud of sand what sort of problems
>> >would it have (if any).
>>
>> It would have quite a lot of problems, IF it did something so silly as
>> to fly through such.  Since a stutterwarp ship normally fights at ranges
>> of several to many light seconds, the odds of it passing through a sand
>> cloud are about zero, unless the Captain is a suicidal idiot.  Normally,
>> such a ship will stay a couple of hours at six-Gs away from you, and
>> your sand won't do anything, except obscure your vision.
>
>How about a stutterwarp-powered missile (or better yet, a whole bunch of
>them) launched from a conventional ship.  Instead of high explosive,
>have a proximity fuse connected to a sandcaster round.  Have the missile
>home in on the stutterwarp ship, and detonate in its path.  If the ship
>is not too badly damaged by this, then launch a bunch more, and surround
>the ship with sand.  Now that you've gotten the thing to stand still,
>you can fire at it with conventional weapons, or come alongside at your
>lesiure for a boarding action.
>
>Robert S. Dean's "Gamba Project" (A capital idea!):
>A couple of points about my interpretation of world statistics.  First
>of all, I interpret them as reflecting the status of the world's
>residents, without traders, military or scout personnel, or any Imperial
>facilities.
>
>Second, I assume that all Class-A starports are effectively at TL-10
>and Class-B starports are effectively TL-9 (even if the world TL is
>lower; this simply means that spare parts and technical crews are
>imported from off-world).
>
>A couple of worlds strike me as having a good bit of potential:
>
>0109  Motet         C898735-3           AG         Y
>Obviously an agro world feeding Madrigal, and maybe other parts of the
>subsector as well.  Good destination for traders looking for an unususl
>cargo
>
>0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
>The industrial powerhouse of the subsector.  I don't believe that
>commercially important worlds need to be high-tech.  Madrigal is quite
>capable of producing industrial goods that would be useful to worlds
>anywhere from TL-3 to TL-9 (which includes most of the worlds in the
>subsector).  For export to lower-tech worlds, it probably produces heavy
>machinery and mining and agricultural equipment; for high tech worlds,
>Madrigal likely exports machine tools, precision equipment, and some
>consumer goods.  It also is the major source of refined chemicals and
>bulk metals (iron and steel ingots, barstock, plates, pipes and other
>useful materials).  Total production is likely to be more than a
>hundred million tons annually.  The class B starport is maintained
>by and for the convenience of Madrigal's customers, and the cost of imported
>skills and technology is part of the cost of doing business.
>
>Madrigal may even be able to fabricate starship hulls, hull components,
>drive mounts, weapons systems, turrets, and dozens of other fittings for
>spacecraft which can be fabricated with their technology.  These
>components can them be shipped to other, higher-tech worlds for
>assembly, and installation of the high-tech drives, computers, and
>equipment.  In this way, the limited shipyard capacity of the subsector
>might be augmented (a shipyard crew could assemble a Liberty ship in
>under 100 hours from pre-fab parts; Kaiser even made escort carriers
>this way; nearly 100 of these CVE's were built between 1943 and
>1945).
>
>Given the government and high law level, I would suggest that Madrigal's
>religeon promotes a strong work ethic and a strict code of behavoir.
>Since the government is the religeon, such codes would have the force of
>law; not a problem for believers, but for off-worlders and
>non-believers, the code of conduct, clothing and
>behavoir standards, and required observances would be nearly impossible
>to keep straight.  Quite possibly unbelievers, heretics, and political
>dissidents are exiled to a specific geographic area (probably originally
>an undesirable island or sub-continent.  The starport is probably also
>located here (off-worlders are unbelievers, after all); believers are
>allowed to travel to the starport (but consider it distasteful or
>faintly sinful), while unbelievers and offworlders are restricted.
>
>As the only industrial world in the subsector, Madrigal probably is used
>to being in a seller's market; there may be increasing tension between
>Madrigal and other worlds (primarily Weelkes).  Madrigal's strategy is
>probably to try to increase its tech level to stay competitive.
>
>0405  Lawes         EAC9200-8           NI         N
>Known locally as "Lawless"; a rough-and-ready mining outpost.
>
>0408  Forqueray     A353546-B  N        NI, P      Y
>The primary Imperial Navy base of the area; most of the "permanent"
>inhabitabts (thos that show on the UPP) are in some way connected to the
>Navy base: contractors, civillian support staff, dependents, merchants
>and all the business that would usually surround a major installation.
>The TL of 11 probably represents the average amenities enjoyed by the
>pernament residents.  The Naval facilities are probably on a par with
>usual Imperial Navy practice: TL-14 or TL-15, including shipyards, a
>naval medical center, and probably a mothball fleet orbiting somewhere
>in the system.  Civillian contractors will happily do work for private
>citizens, too (provided such work does not interfere with their Navy
>commitments); therefore this world probably has an effectively TL-15
>capability for starship construction and repair (but you will probably
>pay several times the normal rate for the work).
>
>0501  Pardessus     A114523-E  S        NI         Y
>Given the high TL and the scout base here, Pardessus is probably a major
>IISS facility; certainly the primary site for Scout construction,
>maintainance, training, and operational control in this subsector.  In
>many ways it will be the IISS equivalent of Forqueray.
>
>0803  Weelkes       C112888-A  S        NA         Y
>Weelkes is almost an industrial world; but it is handicapped by a small
>labor force, and an inadequate starport (which probably reflects a
>general under-capitalization of the whole economy).  Presumably this is
>because an inordinate amount of resources are consumed simply by living
>on this rather inhospitable world.  Presumable selected because of the
>ready availability of some resource (ore? solar power?).  Presumably the
>major priorities of the government is to encourage immigration and
>off-world investment, so that Weelkes can "ramp up" to being a major
>industrial producer.
>
>An source of adventures might be the increasing rivalry between Weelkes
>and Madrigal.  Madrigal can offer high-quality, relatively low-tech
>goods and a reputation for delivering on time and under budget.  Weelkes
>can offer high-tech (at least, high-tech for this subsector) goods, but
>is probably having quality-control and delivery problems.  But they are
>number two: they try harder.
>
>Robert Dean writes:
>>If you use the Classic Traveller description of class A starports as the
>only
>>facilities  containing ship yards, and the shipyard capacities  from
>Trillion
>>Credit  Squadron, you reach the conclusion that there are only four
>potential
>>commercial shipbuilding sites in the subsector, at Galliard (TL14),
>Pardessus
>>(TL14),  Forqueray (TL11) and Lassus (TL13).  The total "drydock" capacity
>of
>>these four sites is 150 tons, 150 tons, 150 tons and 1200 tons  respectively.
>>So, only Lassus can build anything bigger than a Scout ship.  It is my
>inten-
>>tion to stick to Book 2 starship designs for this exercise, which makes
>things
>>a little easier overall, since Jump limits are based on hull size rather
>than
>>tech level.
>I would apply population multipliers (something I did even before Grand
>Survey came out for Classic Traveller) to all of the worlds.  Throwing
>my trusty d10, for the four shipbuilding worlds, I get multipliers of 5,
>9, 1, and 6; this would make the shipyard capacities 750, 1,350, 150,
>and 7,200 tons respectively.  If prefab parts from Madrigal are used to
>speed construction, it might even be reasonable to assume that shipyards
>on these worlds achieve two or three times the average productivity when
>working with standard designs (on the other hand, the average wait for
>custom designs may be several years before constrution even begins).
>
>This gives us a total of 491,400 ton-weeks of shipyard capacity for
>construction.  I will assume (without checking my facts, though) that
>Madrigal, Marais, Fantasia, Simpson, and Adriano are negligible in
>construction and maintainance capacity (Madrigal probably is not).
>The equilibrum equation is X=(U*(N+M))/(4+(T/L)) and the condition is
>that X<=(U*N)/(T/L).
>U == Shipyard Utilization Factor == 1.00
>N == New Ship Construction Capacity == 491,400 ton-weeks
>M == Maintainance Capacity == assumed to be zero
>T == Ship Construction Time == 9600 ton-weeks for a 200 ton ship
>L == Lifespan of an average ship == 100 years if well maintained
>Therefore, X is approximately 510 ships, or 102,000 aggregate tons.
>This fleet is composed of smaller ships than the average for the
>Imperium, and they are older than the average, as well.  Since the
>shipbuilding capacity of the Imperium is not evenly distributed, it
>seems reasonable that many ships are imported from outside the subsector
>to suppliment the local production.  Most ships are probably 200 ton
>types, with a small number of 400 and 800 ton ships (a *VERY* small
>number, probably; and most of them imported).  Forqueray is probably new
>in the starship construction business, and probably produces only two or
>three designs (a type S, a purpose-built seeker, and a 150-ton "stretch
>seeker" intended as a low-cost general merchanter).
>
>>Assuming  a  reasonable ship life, and a need to perform maintenance  for
>two
>>weeks  out  of  each year, we find that Lassus can support a  total  fleet
>of
>>shipping,  military  and civilian, totalling around 19,000  tons.   Ships
>are
>>either going to come from beyond the subsector, or be fairly scarce,or  both.
>>I don't know that this would work, so I have designated Weelkes as a
>potential
>>ship  source.   Weelkes would have a shipyard capacity of  120,000  tons,
>and
>>would be rated as an industrial planet if its population was 9 instead of 8.
>It would be reasonable to assume that Weelkes is trying to become an
>Industrial world, and can rapidly eclipse Madrigal as an important world
>in the subsector.  Let's rather arbitrarily assign it a population
>multiplier of 5.  With a starport of class C, Weelkes is not going to be
>able to produce starships for a while, but we can assume that they are
>currently in the process of upgrading to class B by installing shipyards
>but there are not yet jump-drive fabrication facilities.
>
>Robert S. Dean writes:
>> Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> > The one (roughly) ton shipyard capacity per 1000 inhabitants in TCS is
>> > naval capacity only. No mention is made anywhere about civilian shipping.
>> > My own rule of thumb is two ton of commercial shipping for each ton of
>> > warship.
>> I don't recall a specific ruling on this, and I always worked under the
>> assumption that it was the total capacity, figuring that in war the govern-
>> ment would take control of _all_ shipyards for war work, and in peacetime
>> they'd contract the maintenance work that overflowed from the Navy shipyards
>> out to civilian shipyards, so that there was really very little distinction
>> between the two.  But, as I say, that's just my interpetation.  If you look t
>a
>> the capacity for a Population 9 world, you tend to wonder what they are
>doing
>> with the surplus...
>I don't ever remember a clear ruling on this either, but I have always
>assumed that the capacity rules from TCS were total capacity.  Then
>again, I have also used the population multipliers in the TCS formula
>(which was originally written before there *WERE* population
>multipliers), so my calculations average about 5 times the total ship
>production capacity as the original TCS rules.  My rationalization is
>that the original TCS rules considered only the shipyard capacity
>available for military construction, while the results with the
>population multipliers produce *TOTAL* capacity.  I freely admit that
>this assumption is crude at best, and may be unworkable.  Anybody care
>to think up a variant rule for this (there is one percolating in the
>back of my mind, but it is not ready to come out yet).
>
>Another data point for trade-and-commerce economics fans: Immediately
>prior to the outbreak of WWII, the British Isles imported about 55
>million tons annually.  Included in this total was about all of Great
>Britian's POL (Petrol/Oil/Lubricants) needs, most of her foodstuffs
>nearly all of the ores and raw materials required by her industry, and a
>suprising amount of manufactured goods (particularly machine tools).
>During the worst part of the Battle of the Atlantic, imports were
>reduced to an annulized rate of 30 million tons per year (about half of
>this was food).  During the war, the US firm of Kaiser produced
>prefabricated ships (Liberty Ships).  Each one displaced about 4000 tons
>(that's tons *MASS* folks, empty) and could carry about 7000 tons of
>cargo (again, tons *MASS*).  The Liberty ships could make about 12-14
>knots, and could be built in as little as 4 days (from prefabricated
>components, working round-the-clock). *** The preceeding data from
>Keegan's _The Price of Admiraly_; more recommended reading for TML-ers.
>
>In TRAVELLER terms, a liberty ship is about 800 displacement tons
>(assuming that the average cargo is about 1 mass ton per cubic meter of
>volume) with about 500 displacement tons of cargo (no passengers).
>By figuring the average journey to and from resource worlds, one can
>figure out the number of ships needed to supply the required level of
>imports.
>
>55 million tons annually is about 7860 full loads for the hypothetical
>Traveller starship described above.  Assuming that the ship only makes
>jump-1 (reasonable, because 62.5% of this ship is devoted to cargo), and
>that the average source world is two parsecs away, then we have a
>minimum round-trip voyage of 6 weeks per load (two weeks outbound, one
>week loading, two weels inbound, and one week to unload; a
>minimum-length refuelling stopover is assumed at the intermediate
>point).  Each ship makes 8 trips per year, with four weeks for overhaul.
>Therefore, the merchant fleet serving this world will have to be about
>983 ships with an aggregate tonnage of 786,400 displacement tons.  THe
>traffic flow rate will be between 21 and 22 arrivals per day (with a like
>number of departures, of course).
>
>Remember - this is to support a population and economy the size of
>pre-WWII british isles.  Some Traveller high-population worlds will have
>single cities larger than this.
>
>Robert Dean writes:
>>Agricola:  Standard  atmosphere water world, with a  native  population  of
>>mammalian amphibians, plus a human/dolphin colony.  The natives are balkan-
>>ized,  with  the main source of conflict being over islands which  are  re-
>>quired for breeding grounds and technology platforms.  Pregnant females and
>>young children can't swim, so they need boats or islands.
>I like this idea; asingle minor race will add some interest to an
>otherwise generally bland subsector.
>
>>Canzona: Settled by even more fanatical religious dissidents from Madrigal,
>>who  are  split up into groups that can't agree.   Potential  Amber  travel
>>classification.
>How about from the same sect that colonized Madrigal (both planets
>colonized at the same time from approximately the same population
>source, with roughly the same beliefs).  On Madrigal, the religon has
>remained homogenous (probably for geopolitical reasons, combined with
>the tendancy to isolate dissidents on an island).  On Canzona, the
>church has split into many different sects (nations) each one claiming
>to be the One True Faith.  Disputes over borders, resources, and
>religious questions cause minor wars all the time.  Amber zone
>classification, and potential adventure interest.
>
>Robert Dean writes:
>> [Somebody else writes and I forgot to save the attribution - sorry]:
>> 0806  Brade         C8B7410-7           NI         Y
>> > Company world. Law level non-existent. I think any company would
>> > maintain dicipline, so I'd interpret that as "Law not enforced
>> > outside starport compound" (Starport is owned by company  -  in
>> > fact, it IS the company building). So how does the company make
>> > money? Independent hunters or collectors goes out into that
>> > corrosive atmosphere and collect something valuable (what?). The
>> > company has a monoply on buying. They couldn't care less that
>> > one hunter/collector kills another for his haul,  they get the
>> > stuff in the end, anyway.
>>
>> OK.  I like this, so it's now "official".  What are they collecting?
>> Anybody else got any ideas?
>
>Well, it depends on what the corrosive atmosphere is made out of.  My
>suggestion is that the atmosphere contains various and sundry nasty
>gasses (cyanide, chlorine, or ammonia come to mind, although some more
>interesting organic compounds might be a good idea).  However, a number
>of very interesting plants grow here; the raw plant material is
>manufactured into drugs, spices, and "recreational pharmecuticals"
>(depending of course, on which plant is harvested, and who does the
>processing).  The plants extract compounds from the atmosphere
>and combine them with trace minerals from their growing region to "build"
>the substances of interest.  So far, actually farming the plants has
>proven impractical, and synthesizing the compounds is more expensive
>than refining them from plant matter (but research continues on both
>fronts).
>
>THe best plants probably grow in specialized habitats (for example, one
>kind might be semi-aquatic, and grow like lily-pads in shallow pools of
>whatever nasty substance passes for water on Brade.
>
>A pharmecutical corporation (SuSAG?) operates the starport and is the
>only legal purchaser of the raw Bradeian plants.  Some species are
>refined into drugs, while others are sold as spices.  Because of the
>nature of SuSAG's monopoly, there are a number of attempts at "Black
>Market" harvesting - especially for the illegal drug trade.  Wilderness
>landings on Brade are possible, but dangerous (for two reasons; the
>planet is dangerous enough to begin with, and SuSAG takes very unkindly
>to smugglers).
>
>In addition to the various human threats, some of the animal life-forms
>of Brade can be dangerous to the unwary.  Alltogether, the life of a
>Bradeian Gatherer is not an easy one.  Because there is no effective law
>on Brade save what SuSAG wants to enforce, many of the gatherers are
>fugitives from other worlds in the subsector.
>
>Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk> writes:
>> Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> > 0105  Fantasia      A99A522-8           NI         Y
>> > Large waterworld with either large colony or small independent
>> > population. Could be a co-op seaharverster outfit.
>> This is another one of the classic Traveller worlds.  Will someone please
>> explain to me how a TL 8 world can support a class A starport?  As I
>> understand it, a class A starport can, by definition, build and repair
>> starships, i.e. jump drives, i.e. must be at least TL 9.  Bases, captive
>> worlds or other forms of outside influence might allow some outsider to
>> own, run and supply the starport independantly of the planet, but none of
>> these apply here.
>I usually treat cases like this as meaning that the sustained TL of the
>world is 8; however, the starport has (at a minimum) TL-10 facilities
>available.  In cases like this it means that either the world is more
>advanced in space travel than in most other areas (unlikely), or that
>the parts and skills are imported from more advanced worlds.  In many
>cases this would be because the world is an important importer or
>exporter; in others this would be because it is located astride several
>trade routes, and is in a convenient location for serving many
>starships.  Other possabilities include a corporate service facility
>which uses offworld technology and local (read cheap) labor or
>real-estate.
>
>> > 0110  MADRIGAL      B7989DE-6  S        IND        Y
>> > Who is paying for the Class B Starport? The tech level is too low
>> > to support starships, so someone is importing the technicians and
>> > parts to keep it going. The local government?
>> The local government, supported by disgustingly high taxes, backed up by
>> a law level that prosecutes you if you sneeze the wrong way.
>Madrigal is an industrial world; they probably charge the cost of the
>port to their customers.  They are the only one in the subsector, and
>can probably charge whatever they want for machine tools, processed
>chemicals, and milled steel.  So they probably have a strong economy,
>and enjoy a substantial trade surplus (and a law level that prosecutes
>you if you fail to utter the proper prayer after sneezing).
>
>Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
>>You have a point.  OK.  Let's go for adventure potential.  Adriano was a
>>normal world with a population of 7 or 8 until a few years ago, when a
>>plague so violent and untreatable appeared and killed off the entire
>>population, as per your suggestion.  This will now be the single most
>>important feature of the entire subsector, as research will show that it
>>was a modified Ricercaran disease which _must_ have been deliberately
>>spread.  Who would gain by murdering an entire planetary population? A
>>mystery, and an overwhelmingly important one that must be solved soon!
>>
>>(We won't leave this a mystery for ever, since it is my intention to decide
>>on all such details in this forum, as part of the GMing exercise originally
>>mentioned.)
>I like this idea!  This mystery could be the focus of an entire campaign
>as long and complex as those presented in "The Traveller Adventure".
>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> Rob Dean writes:
>[Rules for constructing commercial starships]
>> > I don't recall a specific ruling on this,
>> Me neither. As I wrote, there's no mention of civilian starships anywhere.
>As far as I know, there aren't any anywhere.  We should probably hammer
>some out; I think that the shipyard capacity should be based on
>population, tech level, trade classification, and perhaps on government
>type and/or law level.  The biggest problem is in deciding what level of
>interstellar commerce we want the result to reflect; perhaps this can be
>reduced to a table of factors.
>
>> >and I always worked under the assumption that it was the total capacity,
>> >figuring that in wartime the govern-
>> >ment would take control of _all_ shipyards for war work,
>> Any government that interfered too much with the merchant marine in wartime
>> would run out of essential goods right speedily. Think about the British
>> Merchant Marine during WWII.
>Exactly.  In wartime, the government would probably supervise production
>to make the most out of the available capacity.  Merchant Marine ships
>would probably be restricted to a few absolutely standard, well-proven
>designs that lend themselves to mass production and pre-fabricated
>parts.  Other industries would be pressed into service making these
>parts (example: Singer's sewing machine factories produced machinegun
>parts during WWII, and many automotive plants were used to produce
>aircraft components).  Reserve capacity would be utilized, and efficency
>increased, so that additional capacity was available for warship
>construction.
>
>Existing TRAVELLER rules (Trillion Credit Squadron and Fifth Frontier
>War) do not really provide for any type of economic warfare (in the
>sense that it was waged in WWII by Germany's U-boats in attempting to
>cut off Britain's imports and starve the country into submission; or
>even in the sense conducted by the Allied strategic bombing campaign in
>attempting to destroy the enemy's industrial ability to wage war).
>Because of this, it is extremely difficult to gauge the level of
>interstellar trade, and the effects of different wartime strategies on
>trade and planetary economies.  This is probably something we can fix
>here on TML; once these questions are answered, it becomes much easier
>to talk about piracy, economic warfare, and tax bases for inperial
>budgets.
>
>Steve H. writes:
>> I don't like the "plague world".  What kind of plague
>> is there that TL14 techniology shouldn't
>> be able to deal with?  Yes, I've read "Speaker
>> for the Dead", but I'm not willing to bet that
>> something like the Descolada couldn't be beaten by Imperial technology.
>There are probably very few diseases that couldn't be beaten by Imperial
>technology.  However, there will still be plague worlds: the question is
>will the population be decimated before effective help arrives?  How far
>away is the help in relation to the speed of the spread of the disease?
>After such a disaster, it may be easier and cheaper to simply interdict
>the world than to try and develop and disseminate a cure.
>
>> As to "Ancient sites", I've never bothered to use
>> one.  Mostly because everyone I've ever
>> played with has been completely turned off by the
>> idea of playing archeologist.  And if it's
>> not archeology, it's dungeon plunging.
>Well, in the past my players have included an anthropologist and an
>archaeologist --- you might say they were interested; one of them even
>turned what I thought was going to be a simple dungeon crawl into a
>full-fledged dig.  Anchient sites *can* be fun, but you've got to think
>more in terms of archaeology a la Indiana Jones rather than archaeology
>as it is actually practised as a science.  Good examples include FASA's
>"Legend of the Sky Raiders" and "Trail of the Sky Raiders", or the
>"Visit to Antiquity" found in an early Travellers' Digest.  An anchient
>site should probably be somewhere in the subsector; players that are
>interested in such things will want it, while those that are not can
>just ignore it.
>
>> "University Planets" I don't buy.  Not until someone
>> can show me a "University country" on
>> Earth.  Talk about overspecialization.  Not
>> to mention that the level of available shipping
>> already described wouldn't be able to handle the off-planet support
>required.
>Well, while there may not be any purely academic planets in a backwater
>like Gamba, there is probably at least one somewhere in the Imperium.
>On the other hand, there may be a world well-known for its excellence in
>education, that draws the best students from many parsecs around to
>study in its institutions.  While there are no "university countries"
>here on earth, many students come from abroad to study at US colleges,
>and the US has many "university cities" - take Blacksburg VA as an
>example.
>
>
>Oh, on the subject of the original SF origins of GDW's Traveller
>concepts, I note that there is a planet Mongo in the Jewell subsector.
>Somehow, I sincerely doubt that this name originated at GDW; in fact, I
>wonder if it was used with permission?
>
>As a point of fact, I doubt that there are very many things in Traveller
>that were not written about in SF literature first.  Marc Miller and GDW
>were simply the first to take all of the elements of classic
>hard-science SF and assemble them all in a role-playing game.
>
>timothy k istian soholt <xoanon@carina.unm.edu> writes:
>A few of my own thoughts on Gamba subsector:
>> > 0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
>> How about this: the tech was recently upgraded when the surviving
>> members of the survey team decided to quit the Service and settle
>> on the planet. (Remember that a population code of 0 means less
>> than ten people, not no people.)They're cordial enough to trav-
>> elers, but they do their best to keep incoming ships to the land-
>> ing pad they've laid out near their homes, and they ask visitors
>> to get their business over with and leave. The Scouts are, in
>Now that's an interesting new explanation for one of these!
>
>> fact, protecting the indigenous population (which doesn't show up
>> on the surveys because they doctored the records) from exploi-
>> tation -- anyone have any ideas what the natives could have that
>> would be significant enough to Imperial interests that they
>> would be in mortal danger if the rest of the galaxy found out?
>In a case like this, why wouldn't the normal IISS protective
>interdiction be better?  Is there some reason why protective
>interdiction was not granted, or even asked for?  Are the scouts
>themelves exploiting the indegenous population?  I think this part needs
>a little more thought, but it has promise ...
>
>> Atmospheric taint would likely be large amounts of water in the
>> air.
>This counts as a taint?  I've always assumed that a taint was something
>which would be extremely unpleaseant at very best, is usually harmful,
>and can be fatal at worst.  Then again, I'm in the Washington, DC area,
>and we have large amounts of water in the air for most of the summer.
>
>Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk> writes:
>> 0705  Jenkins       E87A000-5           --         Y
>> Either there is one family living there, or the local population was wiped
>> out by something but some of the machinery is still around.  That class E
>> starport on a water world of TL 5 makes me wonder if an enterprising team
>> of adventurers might be able to pick up an aircraft carrier for free? :-)
>> Or, perhaps there are a few people there, survivors of a ship which crash
>> landed.  I can just imagine their faces when the survey team said "This is
>> a _survey_ mission, not a rescue mission.  But we've noted your presence -
>> a rescue team should be along some time soon" - just before the Imperium
>> collapsed. :-)
>How about one of these two:  Jenkins could belong to a single family
>(likely noble, or filthy rich, or both) who maintain a residence on this
>otherwise commercially-unexploitable world for pleasure (perhaps
>great-grandad, founder of the sector-wide trading line, was an avid
>fisherman, and Jenkins is where he put his "fishing lodge").  The
>current head of the family is more interested in making money than going
>fishing, and visits only very rarely; the only permanent residents being
>the caretaker and his family.  Another classic alternative would be a
>colony-ship that was bound for a different world misjumped
>or crash-landed here.  The few survivors proceeded to do the best they
>could, and hope for rescue.  By the time they were discovered, the
>remaining colonists had given up on rescue, and had built a life for
>themselves on Jenkins; therefore they refused "rescue".  Now the
>colonizing agency has a problem: should they support this de-facto
>colony on Jenkins or not?  And how would the current residents of
>Jenkins feel about a whole horde of new colonists descending on their
>little island colony?
>
>CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU (Scott "2g" Kellogg) writes:
>> When I think about Class A starports, I have a little trouble
>> sometimes.  I tend to envision large international airports:
>> Dulles, Atlanta, BWI, LAX, Chicago, Heathrow, Newark etc.  Now
>> those to me say 'Class A'.  However, not one of those has anything
>> to do with manufacturing capacity.
>Well, from the Traveller rules, there is not much "official" difference
>between Class A, B, and C ports *EXCEPT* the availability of shipyards
>for construction and repair.  By extension, the class A and B ports have
>more traffic, as both a cause and an effect of their repair and
>construction facilities.
>
>You might be better off thinking of starports the way an 18th- or 19th-
>century sea captain might think about seaports.  The best ports (like
>Baltimore, Liverpool, Cherbourg, Brest, Boston, and many others) could
>supply almost anything needed in the way of provisions, and repairs.
>Shipyards where there to construct new ships; drydocks were available
>for major repairs, and any number of businesses catered to the maritime
>trade.  The second-class ports had no builder's ways or drydocks, but
>could do almost anything else.  On the other end of the spectrum, simply
>getting fresh water and provisions was an adventure at some ports of
>call.
>
>Quantity of shipping does not need to be directly related to the
>presence of construction and repair facilities.  I'm quite sure that
>there are some class A ports which get less traffic than a class D port
>at a busy mining outpost.
>
>> Where are the big ship builders/aircraft manufacturers?  Well, most
>> of the US aircraft companies are out on the west coast.  Boeing's
>> out there in Washington state, Lockheed's in California, the ship
>> builders aren't exactly in the large population ports either.  GE
>> Boats are out in Conneticut.  Norfolk is a large place, but it's
>> not the HUGE place one thinks of when one say's 'Class A' port.
>>
>> Point being, that the ship building yards may not always mean there
>> is a large port or a large amount of traffic going in and out.
>Right.  But the Traveller port classifications measure not the amount of
>the traffic, but the facilities available.  Therefore, Lockheed's plant
>in California rates as a Class A airport, while Chicago's O'hare rates
>as a Class C (or Class B if someone has a fleet maintanance center
>there).
>
>On the other hand, especially in Traveller (like in sailing-ship days)
>having a maintainance or construction center far from large
>concentrations of shipping means unproductive delays.  Imagine a
>merchant ship making a run; if the nearest maintainance center is two
>jumps off of its route, that will mean *ANOTHER* four weeks of
>unproductive time every year; someone who locates a maintainance
>facility on the traderoute will certainly get *MUCH* more business.  The
>same goes for ship construction.  Therefore, in Traveller, construction
>and maintainance facilities will tend to indicate where the
>concentrations of shipping are.  But there will be exceptions, and not
>every high-traffic world will have a shipyard.  In many cases, one high
>population or industrial world will import from and export to nearly
>half a dozen resource, agricultural, or market worlds in the surrounding
>area.  One or two class A or B starports will service all of this trade,
>probably established where the ships tend to concentrate for
>astrographic reasons, or where the skills or resources are readily
>available (such as a high-tech industrial world).
>
>> So, what do we need for a large ship building yard?  Mainly
>> resources.  Those resources are the material to physically make the
>> ship, and the technology to make it work.
>> The technicians needed can be brought in.
>> The parallel is steel plants.  Now, most people would imagine that
>> steel mills would be ideally located near large deposits of iron
>> ore right?  Wrong!  Steel mills are ideally located near large COAL
>> deposits.  The process of making steel requires more coal than it
>> does iron ore.  (Pittsburgh?)
>I'd argue that the main ingredent is not the resources or the technical
>skill; both can be imported.  What is important is a location convenient
>to your customer base.  As it usually works out, this typically means
>on a resource world, or an industrial world (both popular destinations,
>and able to supply some of the needs of a shipyard).
>
>> Ok, now with economics still working that way, Ship yards need to
>> be located near large mineral deposits and sufficient technlogy
>> back there to build it up.  Technicians can be shipped in.
>Large mineral deposits mean lots of cheap ore or processed products,
>which means a large volume of trade.  Lots of ships means a good
>opportunity for starship maintainance facilities, and even starship
>construction yards.  Technicans and even pre-fabricated parts can be
>shipped in if the demand warrants the expense.
>
>> Galliard is one of the main ship builders of Gamba.  The system has
>> a rich asteroid belt with several drydock asteroids.  The Navy uses
>> the TL 14 ship yard (Galli-Yard) to maintain some of their older
>> escorts and as a storage facility for the sector's mothball fleet.
>> The university of Galliard has a highly accredited naval
>> architectural and engineering graduate program.
>The name "Galli-Yard" is a little silly, but OK so far.
>
>> The ancient site there is of course highly classified, however,
>> rumors indicate that the Galli-Yards, were built over the grounds
>> of the site.  This has prompted speculation that the ancient site
>> was originally a shipyard, and that the Navy supposedly took
>> advantage of the University's excavation/reconstruction of the
>> site.  The truth of the matter is unknown, but the University
>> students are known to encourage the rumor.  Indeed, they point to
>> the presence of the sector's only accredited post graduate naval
>> archeology program as evidence of the yard's quality.  The Ancient
>> Society of Engineers is a group of naval architecture and
>> engineering students which claims to design and maintain ancient
>> starships.  (Evidence is however that this is simply a group of
>> drunken students)  :-)
>> There is also the unexplained date of the founding of the yard:  It
>> is on the Imperial registry as the oldest operational shipyard, and
>> is dated as being founded -201,007 years Pre-Imperium.
>This sounds like an elaborate hoax (or running joke) perpetrated by the
>afore-mentioned drunken eingineering students.
>"We are, we are, we are the Ancient Engineers
> We can, we can, we can drink forty beers!
> Drink rum, drink rum, drink rum and come along with us,
> 'Cause we don't give a damn for any damn man who don't give a damn for us!
>    --- Traditioal Galliard Tech student drinking song
>
>
>wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
>- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                         in the Far Future
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of TML Nightly
>******************

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 400  4719 12-Oct-1992                  Re: TML nightly: Msgs 4706-4706 V45 <<
 400  4720 12-Oct-1992 George William   Going our Own Way << Metlay made some v
 400  4721 12-Oct-1992 CS171308011@UTS  RE: Doing it ourselves << Metlay talked
 400  4722 12-Oct-1992 CS171308011@UTS  Galliard Starport Placement << Catie se
 400  4723 12-Oct-1992 metlay           A matter of etiquette << [ The body of
 400  4724 13-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Economics in Gamba << Steve Higgin
 400  4725 13-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Doing it ourselves << 2G Scott Kel
 400  4726 13-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Gamba stuff << 2G Scott writes:
 400  4727 13-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Agricola << Regarding the fragmentary d
 400  4728 12-Oct-1992 Hans Rancke-Mad  Doing it ourselves << Mike writes:
 400  4729 13-Oct-1992 Robert S. Dean   Gamba Subsector, part 3 << THE AGRICOLA

------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4719
Date: 	Mon, 12 Oct 1992 12:15:00 -0400
From: <PHB100@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 4706-4706 V45

ouch.  First let me apologize for my previous post.  I pressed the wrong key
and sent it off before I finished composing.  Sorry.  I now return you to my
post in progress....


>TML nightly     Thu Oct  8 20:30:05 EDT 1992    Volume 45 : Issue 20
>
>Archive-Message-Number: 4706
>From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
>Subject: Long Message from Wildstar
>
>I've been off in jumpspace for the last week or so, but now I am getting
>around to responding to some of the recent threads here on TML.
>
>About the "Virus" and Challenge 64:
>
 ...
>
>I find it extremely difficult to believe that the question "What if
>someone discovered intelligent computer chips?" has one and only one
>answer: "People would build them into walkie-talkies and forget their
>very existance."  What about the issue of "all sentient life-forms are
>protected citizens of the Imperium".  These sophont computer chips are
>naturally-occurring, evolved creatures; definitely life-forms!  Is this
>a major form of slavery within interstellar society, or are the Cymbiots
>paid employees of the ship owner, free to quit at any time?  If they are
>de-facto slaves, how do they feel about it?  They are sentient creatures
>capable of forming their own opinions, aren't they?

Maybe they _are_ treated as slaves.  Perhaps *THIS* is the true nature
and source of the virus...the Cymbiots are taking revenge and freeing
themselves from an oppressive slavery.

See, the Imperium wasn't totally stupid for creating a computer virus that
destroyed their culture...they were totaly stupid for making slaves of a race
that could DIRECTLY affect the single aspect of their culture that was
responsible for keeping their culture intact (i.e. their computers).  This
slave race was the one who created the virus and furthermore, they could not
be detected or prevented from doing so.

There are a couple of points that need discussion...

1.  What took them (the Cymbiots) so long to rebel?
    A.  Perhaps the conditions they worked under only got bad recently?
    B.  Perhaps it took them this long to spread the rebellion plan among
        all or most of the Cymbiot occupied ships?

2.  Since I never planned on using the virus idea, I never paid any attention
    to the details of it.  How did ship-based chips feed this virus into
    planet-based systems which would NEVER need to interface with the ship
    systems anyway?

3.  Could the Cymbiots have sparked off the Rebellion?  Here's how I see it
    could have happened....

    If the Cymbiots can indeed interface with planet-based systems (see #2),
    then they inserted news stories about the assasination of Strephon in all
    the planetary news services they contact.  These stories would be complete
    in all details, including the fact that Dulinor assassinated the emperor
    and assumed the Iridium Throne.  In fact neither Dulinor nor the emperor
    were on Capitol at the time.  Strephon was away on a secret vacation
    (even emperors, *especially* emperors need vacations), while Dulinor was
    in transit back to his home from a visit to the capitol.  Notice both
    principals are out of touch.

    When the twins hear the news one assassinates the other (rats, I can't
    remember their names) for whatever reason, things like this happen all the
    time 8+)

    Dulinor hears that Strephon has been assassinated and it has been
    attributed to him (mistakenly, he believes).  He goes along with it,
    because it is a lucky accident and he thinks he can do a better job anyway.
    After Strephon speaks up, he can't back down or disclaim something he has
    already publicly claimed.  Nor can he claim it was mistaken identity
    because he has already made some statements concerning the subject.

    Meanwhile Strephon has heard that he has been assassinated by D.  He also
    believes it is a case of mistaken identity, in this instance the
    victim was mistakenly identified as Strephon.

    One thing leads to another and the Rebellion happens as already outlined
    by GDW.  However, it was all triggered by the Cymbiots in order to
    create a chaotic situation wherein their own rebellion has a better
    chance of success.

No doubt this scenario has problems which some of you will proceed to point
out to me...8+), but hey, it *could* have happened that way.

 ...
>
>About Stutterwarp, Steve H. writes:

>How about a stutterwarp-powered missile (or better yet, a whole bunch of
>them) launched from a conventional ship.  Instead of high explosive,
>have a proximity fuse connected to a sandcaster round.  Have the missile
>home in on the stutterwarp ship, and detonate in its path.  If the ship
>is not too badly damaged by this, then launch a bunch more, and surround
>the ship with sand.  Now that you've gotten the thing to stand still,
>you can fire at it with conventional weapons, or come alongside at your
>lesiure for a boarding action.

Why does this make the stutterwarp ship stand still?  Can't it still stutter?
 8+))

On the Gamba subsector:
>
>> Atmospheric taint would likely be large amounts of water in the
>> air.
>This counts as a taint?  I've always assumed that a taint was something
>which would be extremely unpleaseant at very best, is usually harmful,
>and can be fatal at worst.  Then again, I'm in the Washington, DC area,
>and we have large amounts of water in the air for most of the summer.
>
Ya, I agree with this, water is not a taint or Earth would certainly be
considered to have a tainted atmos.  Here in central Pennsylvania, we get
lots of humidity also (where it comes from, I don't know, unless it drifts
down the 125 miles from lake Erie).


- ----------
Captain Sir Michael Talmoth,  UPP:  BA5A8B

"You see me now a veteran,
     Of a thousand psychic wars,
         I've been living on the edge so long,
             Where the winds of Limbo roar.
- -- BOC


------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4720
Subject: Going our Own Way
From: gwh@lurnix.COM (George William Herbert)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 12:50:36 -0700


Metlay made some very astute observations about the concept
of TML getting together and doing a game.  I'd like to comment
a bit on what he said.

The chaos that ensued when TDR was formed (ah, but it was fun...)
was a demonstration of why committees are bad business.
I got the distinct impression, however, that despite the
failure in general there were a lot of people with talent
and energy at that time.

A subset of the TDR group could easily do a complete game
system if they wanted.  The TDR group contained many more
highly talented game design people than the average game
company.  The problem isn't talent, but too much of it;
TDR was open and had a lot of people, where a successful
project would have to be more selective, not for talent
but for ability to work together and constructively
criticize.  We've seen several successful small scale
collaborations here, the trick is to take them as the
lesson and generalize a bit 8-)

- -george



------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4721
Date:    Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:25:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: RE: Doing it ourselves

Metlay talked a lot about trying to take over Trav from GDW.

(Much stuff on creative writing by commitee deleted)
'Fraid he's right folx.  I've seen a lotta projects on the TML die
off because there was a lack of a shared vision on how it was all
to work.

Metlay sed:
}I think we should enjoy doing things on a small scale, like
}Gamba, & enjoy the victories of which we ARE capable.

As a matter of fact, the only project I've seen live all the way
through was The Horde.  That had 3 motivated people.  It started
with Rob's ideas, some collaberation, then I cranked out the
designs which Rob approved.  Metlay did the story by hisself.

The reason I think that Gamba is gonna work is because we got
Rob out there who stated from the start 'This is not a democracy'.

Look, we all as GM's are very different.  We have our strong points
where we can go to town.  Mine is physics and to a certain extent,
military hardware (craft design).  But you put me in economics or
some other area, and Steve and Wildstar will walk all over me.
I'm certian our campaigns reflect this.  Me?  I barely ever use
the economics stuff in Trav.  I don't think I've read the full Trade
and Commerce rules.  Mark and Eric can tell you what they think of my
knowlege of psych and bio stuff.  Well, I know those are my weak
points and I stay away from 'em.

So the areas where I'm weak, I use more simplitic rules than others
more competant in that area would.

Ya know, what *I'd* like to see on the TML would be some stuff on what
I *DON'T* know.  I'd *LOVE* to see some Trade & Commerce stuff that
makes sences and works.

I'd *LOVE* to see some bio stuff in it all.

Computer stuff.
Geology stuff.
Chemistry stuff.

All kinds of stuff worked out by folx who *KNOW WHAT THEY'RE
TALKING ABOUT*.  Like George's Watercraft design stuff.

So, while I'm out here, lemme ask a few folx who seem to know
where their heads are at a few questions:

Mark, Richard, James:  How do you handle computers, robots and
AI in Trav?

Steve, Wildstar:  How would you handle trade and commerce from the
point of view of a bunch of jokers in a free trading starship?

Mark, Eric (Loren Wiseman?  You there?):  You ever come up with
something on Bio?

Catie:  How do you handle rock knocking in Trav?

Rob:  How do you handle chemisty stuff in Trav?

Metlay:  How do you handle Rock & Roll in Trav?  :-)

I sed:
>You mean that with all the OTHER silly musical names in Gamba sector
>I can't add one more?  Why don't we have a balkanized planet named
>Guitar?  With the nations Fender, Gibson, & Danelectro?  Maybe a
>world named Xpander?  Metlay?  :-)

Metlay sez:
}Make fun of me at your peril, sonny boy. Make fun of my Xpander and
}you've had it. |->

HA!  Put yer Music where yer Mouth is kiddo.
I'll match my good ol' TL 6 Danelectro, with lipstick pickups
'gainst yer TL 8 Xpander any day.  Les Rumble!  |->

'Course Gamba Man Dean is stuck back @ TL 3...  :-)

Scott 2G Kellogg^Z

------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4722
Date:    Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:25:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: CS171308011@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU
Subject: Galliard Starport Placement

Catie sez:
}industries tend to be sited to minimize the largest costs
}(which in the old & new world is labor & transportation).

(Analysis of Pittsburgh deleted.)
Ok, I aien't no mineralogist.  I'ze just a down home research tech.
So's maybe I aien't got no rocks in me head...

But here's what I were envisionin' fer Galliard.

The system is heavy in terms of mineral resources.  Specifically
the resources needed to build ships.  There also was (at the time
of the initial survey before any exploitation) an ancient site.
That site drew the scientists and the Navy.  The resources drew
miners.  The when the ancient site was worked over, the scientists
turned their attention to the miners and the mining co-operatives.

Kaboom.  Thy work together, and the Naval Architects and Engineers
and Miners all decide to put on a show in their uncle's barn.
They got materials, processing equipment, and high tech stuff.  All
the making's of a ship yard.  Transports cheap, all the stuff is in
system.

}Regardless of how sectors are
}generated, there should be a good reason for the siting of a
}class A starport, either because the cost of in-systems materials
}are cheap, or because that starport is @ the junction of several
}insterstellar trade routes.

How 'bout both?  Good materials, and the fact that Galliard *is* on
the X-Boat route.  :-)

2G Scott^Z

------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4723
From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Subject: A matter of etiquette
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 20:00:20 PDT

[ The body of this letter has been deleted at the request of the
poster and with approval of the moderator. - Mark F. Cook ]


------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4724
Date:     Tue, 13 Oct 92 9:32:59 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Economics in Gamba

Steve Higginbotham writes:
> Wildstar writes:
> >0109  Motet         C898735-3           AG         Y
> >Obviously an agro world feeding Madrigal, and maybe other parts of the
> >subsector as well.  Good destination for traders looking for an unususl
> >cargo
>
> Why does ANYONE believe that TL3 worlds can feed a subsector?  TL3 countries
> usually have trouble feeding themselves, much less anyone else.  Look
> around at the food exporting countries in the real world:  they are all
> comparatively high technology (TL6+).

Steve's right on the mark with this one, although I will note that TL3
is roughly 1700-1860 by my classic Traveller guidlelines.  I don't really
think that Motet will be feeding the subsector, or even Madrigal.  I do
think that they may have sufficient food to export, although I expect that
the exports would concentrate on high value foods of various sorts rather
than bulk grain.  Real world analogies would include bananas, coffee, and
alcoholic beverages as examples.

This brings up one of those sticky points about Traveller, which we are all
aware of, and which we all have different ways of dealing with:

WHAT IS TECH LEVEL?

I tend toward the "sustainable with local resources" description rather than
the "maximum level  to be found for sale" description, so it would not be too
unreasonable to think that some farming on Motet is carried on with the assist-
ance of TL6 farm equipment from Madrigalan factories, which are either repaired
by Madrigalan technicians using imported parts when they break down, or perhaps
simply scrapped....

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4725
Date:     Tue, 13 Oct 92 11:16:52 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Doing it ourselves

2G Scott Kellogg writes:

> Look, we all as GM's are very different....

Right.  Very soon, I'll have heard enough ideas about Gamba subsector
world descriptions, and I'll start talking about adventures....
But in the meantime, anybody with a drastically different interpretation
of any of the worlds is encouraged to speak up!

> Ya know, what *I'd* like to see on the TML would be some stuff on what
> I *DON'T* know.  I'd *LOVE* to see some Trade & Commerce stuff that
> makes sences and works.

I could do with a bit of that too....

> Rob:  How do you handle chemisty stuff in Trav?

I don't.  It's easy.  I've considered the question of basing an adventure
around a chemical engineering problem, but have not been able to come up
with a reasonable framework that would be accessible to most players and not
too boring.

> I sed:
> >You mean that with all the OTHER silly musical names in Gamba sector
> >I can't add one more?  Why don't we have a balkanized planet named
> >Guitar?  With the nations Fender, Gibson, & Danelectro?  Maybe a
> >world named Xpander?  Metlay?  :-)
>
> Metlay sez:
> }Make fun of me at your peril, sonny boy. Make fun of my Xpander and
> }you've had it. |->
>
> HA!  Put yer Music where yer Mouth is kiddo.
> I'll match my good ol' TL 6 Danelectro, with lipstick pickups
> 'gainst yer TL 8 Xpander any day.  Les Rumble!  |->

If you want to do a Guitar subsector with all the names drawn from guitar
sources, feel free...(-: (-:

> 'Course Gamba Man Dean is stuck back @ TL 3...  :-)

I'll thank you not to modernize my instrument any more than necessary.  The
viola da gamba is a fine example of late TL_2_ technology.  And, as everyone
with any sense knows, true music can only be made by dragging fibers from a
horse's tail across pieces of dried sheep's intestines...

Rob Dean

------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4726
Date:     Tue, 13 Oct 92 11:28:48 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Gamba stuff

2G Scott writes:
>
> Wildstar sez:
>
> }Second, I assume that all Class-A starports are effectively @ TL-10
> }and Class-B starports are effectively TL-9 (even if the world TL is
> }lower; this simply means that spare parts & technical crews are
> }imported from off-world).
>
> I disagree.

You're welcome to your disagreement, Scott, but I'm with Wildstar on this
one.  It hasn't come up in my campaigns much, but I'd rule that you could
get repairs or overhauls at an A or B low tech starport at some inflated
price and consider the tech level of the repair parts and so forth to be
equivalent to that of the nearest "reasonable supplier" world.  This would
be a floating scale, of course, with someplace like Glisten in the Spinward
Marches almost certainly dominating its subsector.

> Class C ports don't even have refined fuel available.

You're right about that, Scott, but with High Guard added to Book 2 we get
the fuel purifier.  Once you have that rule, Steve Higginbotham has demon-
strated that it never makes sense to have a ship which is not equipped with
one, making the availability of refined fuel a bit of a moot point.  The
only idfferences between starports that we are left with then is their
repair and support facilities.  And to add fuel to the fire, consider that
any typical modern airport would count as a reasonable starport in Traveller--
a type D or E at least.  With a fuel purifier, all you need is a hard pad to
land on and a water hose to top off the fuel tanks. (-:

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4727
Date:     Tue, 13 Oct 92 13:04:12 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Agricola

Regarding the fragmentary discussions on whether or not Agricola could support
the evolution of amphibious life:

I just did the calculations and came to the conclusion that the 5% maximum
land area allowed under an "A" hydrographics rating on a size 5 planet
amounts to about 10,000,000 square kilometers, an area roughly 1.3 times
the size of Australia.  I really think that is sufficient to allow the
evolution of a reasonable number of land and/or amphibious lifeforms...

Any biologists out there?

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4728
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Doing it ourselves
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 12:51:04 MET

Mike writes:
> My two cents' worth on the "let's do it ourselves" idea is simple:
> I don't think it can be done. Witness TDR.
>
> People have too many divergent opinions and are too willing to argue
> down into the level of the trivial without agreeing on generalities to
> ever produce an alternative to what's published by GDW. People are on
> this group because they love to talk and to argue, more so than to
> listen.

I think you may be right, but possibly not. Half a year ago I solicited
help in developing a true frontier (as in: The PCs are the first people
of the Imperium who's been here) in the sectors immidiately spinward of
Spinward Marches (Beyond, Foreven and Vanguard Reaches). It didn't get
very far, true, but the reason wasn't that people argued it to death.
Scott, Steve, Juergen and I had some very fruitful exchanges and I took
some decisions based on those discussions. Mind you, none of the others
agreed totally with me on very much; Scott thought that the TLs of the
area ought to be lower than what I eventually decided on, Steve didn't
quite believe in the gimmick I used to open up this frontier, etc., but
my impression was that they were willing to agree to disagree and go on
with it. The reason why it ground to a halt was that I were too busy to
keep up my end of it (I functioned more or less as an editor, I guess).

I think that such projects can succeed, but only if one or two persons are
willing to function as "primus motor" for each project, which will entail
a lot of work for said "editors", and only if the other people involved are
willing to let the editors take decisions. The last bit also requires
the editors to be flexible enough to let go of their own pet ideas once
in a while.

> We could
> then, as an intellectual enterprise, write the equivalent of a GURPS
> sourcebook, based on the simple premise that Strephon never died. But
> I predict that this won't get any farther than an argument over
> whether the first new historical item should be the declaration of a
> new Emperor in Ilelish (assuming Dulinor tried and failed) or
> something else (assuming he never tried).

I have a complete framework for a "putting Humpty-Dumpty together again"
adventure that I think is pretty damn ingenious. The aforementioned "New
Frontier" project was actually my first step in getting this campaign
going, as the initial impetus comes from one of the unknown planets.
I'd love to have some help developing it if only I had the time. Oh well,
one of these days I will TAKE the time...

> People will accuse me of cynicism and of being a "wet blanket." Well,
> maybe. But everyone seems to be in the habit of getting all fired up
> about these grand designs and then suffering major letdowns when they
> go flat;

I think the trick is to give these things a try, but not to get one's
hopes up too much. Most projects may flop, propably will, but before that
happens some useful stuff will almost certainly  be produced. I've already
gotten a lot of neat ideas for the New Frontier from Scott and the others.
Even if nothing more ever comes of it, I've had some fun and profit from
those three or four weeksit lasted. And who knows? Maybe I can revive it
someday.

> I think we should enjoy doing things on a small scale, like
> Gamba, and enjoy the victories of which we ARE capable.

By all means let us get on with Gamba. But in keeping with my idea of
the extreme importance of the "project editor", I suggest that it is
quite necessary for Rob to issue occasional updates of which of our
many ideas he has decided to make "official". I for one would like to
see a revised set of world descriptions soon, as there have been a lot
of different ideas, some mutually exclusive, presented. I know that he
has said "we'll go with this" on several occasions, but I'd like a
coherent update of the whole thing.

> I believe that
> if a Strephon-never-died book for GDW is ever going to get written and
> published successfully, it'll be done by one person with one vision.

Or possibly by a group of people guided by one person wih one vision.




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "This gives a possible range of 56 to 178 starships
         total  in the three Terran starport facilities,  a
         believable quantity for such a star system."

        "We have a maximum of 178 ships in port, and (as it
         is a busy star system)  we will say that there are
         70 docking berths at the Phoenix facility."

                        ---Journal of the Traveller's
                           Aid Society # 18

------------------------------

Bundle: 400
Archive-Message-Number: 4729
Date:     Tue, 13 Oct 92 15:37:43 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Gamba Subsector, part 3


THE AGRICOLANS

Unfortunately, I can't draw.  I especially can't draw in ASCII, so I  can't
transfer  the little sketch of an Agricolan to the list.  My conception  of
the  Agricolans is that they are four limbed, with a long heavy tail  which
includes a vertical fin structure.  Their feet are webbed and provide  most
of their water propulsion, with the tail used for steering.  The  forelimbs
each  have  a  hand with four relatively delicate  fingers.   The  skin  is
smooth,  and  a mottled dark gray/green on top, shading to a  fairly  light
gray below.  This provides camouflage from above and below.  I suppose that
camouflage from above would be an evolutionary advantage if the  Agricolans
or  their  ancestors were hunted by flying creatures, and  camouflage  from
below  is an advantage to any hunter swimming near the surface looking  for
prey  beneath it.  The sensory organs are fairly conventional, and  located
at  the front of the head.  (Should they have a sonar sense?)  Buoyancy  is
maintained by a swim bladder in the torso, which is interconnected with the
lungs, but which can be controlled separately.  In pregnant females in  the
later  stages of pregnancy the swim bladder is compressed by the  fetus  so
that  the female Agricolan cannot float.  The overall visual impression  of
an Agricolan would be something like a dolphin with tyrannosaur-like limbs.
I  should mention that breathing is done through a blowhole on top  of  the
head, like a dolphin's.

The  traditional  weapons of the Agricolans include  spears  and  tridents,
nets, knives and blow guns.  Most other Earth-type primitive weaponry would
not  be usable under water.  An Agricolan blowgun is a rather  odd  looking
piece  of equipment to human eyes, since it is powered by an  expulsion  of
air through the blow hole, above and behind the Agricolan's eyes.

            "Wind Cap"/\-------------<  Muzzle of blow gun
                  ___/__\__
                 /        o \  Head of Agricolan
                    _________)
                   /

The  "wind cap", the curved part fitting over the blow hole, is shown  here
larger  than scale.  Due to the necessity of the curved shape, a  blow  gun
either  has to be muzzle loading, or break apart just forward of  the  wind
cap  in  order  to be insert the dart.  Both solutions have  been  used  at
various times.  A sight is usually installed on the bottom of the tube.

Agricolan  designed vehicles would take advantage of  Agricolan  locomotion
patterns.   Thus,  an Agricolan chair would hold an Agricolan  in  a  prone
position, with the sensory apparatus and hands at the front covering  minor
controls,  the  legs  and feet controlling the throttle(s),  and  the  tail
fitting into a steering fixture.  Two humans could probably work an Agrico-
lan  control  chair, since a stretched out Agricolan is  about  2.8  meters
long.   One would have to work the steering and the other the forward  con-
trols.  I can see this coming up in an annoying way in an adventure,  which
is why I mention it.

That's about all I've figured out about the Agricolans so far.  Anyone  who
would  like  to suggest how their psychology is influenced by  their  semi-
aquatic lifestyle is welcome to do so...


OTHER FEATURES OF THE GAMBA SUBSECTOR:

I  still am visualizing the Gamba subsector as being fairly isolated,  with
no  real  external  threats.  As a result, I would  expect  Imperial  armed
forces units to be primarily used for peace-keeping and emergency  response
activities, and to be maintainable with local resources.  I won't post  the
design  today, but using book 2 you could have a 1000 ton TL13 patrol  ship
with 3-G maneuver and Jump-3, plus six pinnaces and 60 troops.

So, I came up with the following:

There are *2* Naval Bases, at Forqueray and Galliard.

     3 Imperial Navy squadrons are stationed in the subsector, two of which
have  the  above mentioned 1000 ton patrollers (one squadron of 6  at  Gal-
liard,  and  one  of 7 at Forqueray), and one of which is  a  light  escort
squadron with 12 Type T patrol cruisers, officially based at Forqueray, but
usually patrolling the class A and B starports in pairs, with a flight of 4
almost always at Lassus.  In the event of a major outbreak of piracy, or an
interplanetary war beyond the ability of these forces to handle, additional
ships  could  be brought from an adjacent subsector (to  be  determined  if
necessary,  when necessary).  If we decide to use the Adriano  incident,  a
large temporary Imperial force might be present there.  I think the  piracy
threat would be pretty low, personally, since none of the systems is really
lawless and high tech enough to be a good haven for space pirates.   "Claim
jumping" in the asteroid mining systems might be a problem, though...

There are *9* Scout bases:

Violone: anthropology, semi-interdiction
Pavane: anthropology
Madrigal: communication
Treble: emergency
Bass: system survey
Bach: communication
Weelkes: repair/support
Pardessus: emergency now, but repair/support under construction
Baldwyn: communication

I'd figure that one Imperial marine regiment would be enough, so they'll be
based  at  Forqueray with the naval headquarters, such as it  is.   They're
probably equipped at TL13 using locally produced gear (from Lassus),  since
that's  enough  of an advantage over the local planetary  armies.   They've
also  probably  got  a high number (for color)--I wrote them  down  as  the
986th.

I've never been very comfortable with the entire idea of an Imperial  army,
but  if there is any major Imperial army presence, it is probably  centered
on Weelkes, and equipped at TL10.  Definitely third or fourth line...

Mercenaries  would probably be fairly scarce, too.  The main use of  merce-
naries,  as I read it, are on balkanized planets, and with Canzona being  a
mere  TL3,  and Agricola inhabited by aliens, I doubt that  there  is  much
demand.   Such mercenaries as there are probably mostly from  Weelkes,  and
equipped at TL10.  (Conveniently, I've got a lot of TL10 military equipment
for MegaTraveller, if I were to decide to do something along those  lines.)
I  suppose that the Madrigalans might have a large standing army, more  for
internal  security than anything else, and that it might ship units out  to
other  systems  for practice, but moving TL6 military gear  around  doesn't
seem  very likely to be cost effective.  Counter examples and opinions  are
welcome.

I've already mentioned that there were no psionics institutes when I rolled
the original stats, but if you accept the Gannon hypothesis as laid down  a
while back in Challenge, you might find a few isolated psionic  practition-
ers on Violone and/or Susato.



Rob Dean

Keep those discussions going...

------------------------------
